interesting article on exhaustion: physical or mental?
Last Post 12/17/2014 08:21 PM by Orange Crush. 18 Replies.
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Orange Crush

Posts:1251

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06/07/2014 06:24 PM
Scroll down to below athlete comment to actual article, pretty interesting. http://alainlambert.wordpress.com/2014/05/11/what-we-call-exhaustion-isnt-the-inability-to-continue-its-giving-up/
Pin0Q0

Posts:229

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06/08/2014 07:24 PM
Good perspective but long, over analyzed and I’m not totally convinced. I think pain threshold varies per individual, and ultimately athletes with high pain threshold are the ones that can perform on a pro level.

My question to the author would be (at least about myself) is how your pain threshold varies from day to the next. Granted by no means do I follow a strict diet or training regime, I ride three to four times a week, but my threshold varies on the same ride, for instance, rode Thursday after work 38m, very little climbing, rest Friday, and rode 72 miles Saturday with about 3000 ft of climbing, which included the Manayunk wall. Felt like crap all day in the saddle, thighs screaming, knee clicking and felt my hamstrings were going to pop. I rode the exact loop today, felt no pain and hammered with no issues, I was well fueled both days. Makes no sense!! My 2c.
C2K_Rider

Posts:173

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06/09/2014 10:31 AM
This is a revelation? Not sure why. I wonder if the researcher ever competed in anything.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1192

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11/25/2014 04:26 PM
I've been reading a book by Matt Fitzgerald called "Run", which talks about learning how to run by feel....and not just on any given day, but in terms of guiding your whole running program. Very interesting stuff....

Anyway, he talks about this exact thing in the book. His premise is that the mind basically seeks to protect the body from damaging itself and shuts down the systems before it can get hurt.

Tim Noakes has a similar theory and calls it the "internal governer."
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
jacques_anquetil

Posts:234

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11/25/2014 05:23 PM
i wish my internal governor was set to something other than "lazy."
longslowdistance

Posts:744

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11/26/2014 08:46 AM
LOL!
Pass the remote.
jmdirt

Posts:755

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11/28/2014 11:09 AM
A Physiology/Kinesiolgy Doc published research called "Break on Through" in the late '80s. One of his conclusions was, what Pin said above, that elite athletes can take their bodies to a place that most people can't.

It might have been Brian Sharky?
Keith Richards

Posts:759

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12/01/2014 01:22 PM
This makes sense to me instinctively. I have a friend who is vegetarian, doesn't smoke, rarely drinks...all the right bike equipment. Tall, skinny. When I introduced him to cycling, looking at him on paper I thought, "well once I show him the ropes I will probably be chasing him all over the DC/metro area."

Never happened. He just simply cannot take the physical discomfort that is required to be fast. I realized it when he came back from two weeks in Colorado and was no faster than when he left. I spend two weeks in Colorado mid season and I will come back with Pro/1/2 speed.

He always is talking about the importance of "listening to your body" and my respnose to him was, "I don't know about strictly 'listening to your body'...me and my body are in constant conversation. But sometimes it does what I tell it, not the other way around."

CK...at a certain point with years in a sport, should any grown person be able to train by feel?
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1192

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12/01/2014 03:07 PM
Posted By Keith Jackson on 12/01/2014 01:22 PM
CK...at a certain point with years in a sport, should any grown person be able to train by feel?


Yeah, I think so.....but I think it takes a long time to generate the data points necessary to be able to guide by "feel."

I know how hard I should be pushing during the bike leg in a tri, no matter the distance. Short distance tri = "Suck it up, buttercup", Half IM = "tempo" ride and full IM = "Long day, save it for the run." Even without a power meter, I can dial in my pace by feel pretty easily.

Running, OTOH, is a complete guess for me (as is well evidenced nby my implosion at Madison). Without a watch or Garmin to pace myself, I am lost. I tend to run WAY too fast in training especially.

But I have seen good runners who can easily pace themselves on the run struggle completely with the bike. The "feel" of those two efforts are pretty different. For distance running, your "feel" seems to need to be much easier than your "feel" for a similar effort bike.

But experience can teach you this over time.....I just lack the necessary database in running to pace myself properly by "feel'.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Keith Richards

Posts:759

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12/02/2014 02:12 PM
Yeah, we are actually agreeing. If you had decades of 10ks and 1/2 marathons and full marathons under your belt along with all the training required to be proficient at them, going by feel would be easy.

That is where most of the people on this forum are at. After so many seasons of ramping up, peaking, etc., you should know what you need to do and when to a certain extent.
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Hoshie

Posts:123

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12/16/2014 12:00 AM
RPE is really effective if you are "tuned" and know yourself. I find when I get training regularly again, RPE is good and matches my data well.

On a side note, I put the garmin, trainingpeaks, etc away after I got pneumonia in Fall and am now just looking forward to getting back in shape by enjoying riding for a bit. Less stress.

Keith, I totally agree with your assessment on pain and ability to push thru. I am best when fit - then I don't mind hurting. So, my desire and ability to hurt increases w/ fitness which I suppose many guys are like that.

In contrast I have a riding "buddy" who has all the physical tools but he never out climbs me which is embarrassing for him.

I am a short mesomorph sprinter looking guy, and he is tall and willowy, but he just can't suffer. That's the bottom line. He's got better physiology, but soft as a pillow....

j

Dale

Posts:524

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12/16/2014 01:50 AM
Yer' riding buddy is Andy?! Holy cow, that's so cool!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1192

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12/16/2014 10:30 AM
Keith, I totally agree with your assessment on pain and ability to push thru. I am best when fit - then I don't mind hurting. So, my desire and ability to hurt increases w/ fitness which I suppose many guys are like that.


So there is a "trend" now in training. / coaching that deals with "specificity"....IOW, as you get closer to your "A" race, your training should begin to mimic those race demands.

If your big goal of the season is the state RR, you would do more high intensity stuff early in the year and then begin to add distance as you approach the race. This concept is advocated a lot for long-course triathletes. Do high intensity stuff in the winter and then add volume as the race approaches.

Here's the thing - I have zero desire to high intensity stuff when I am not at a pretty high level of fitness. It sucks and it hurts and it is demoralizing. But then again, I have always been an athlete that responded better to a "high volume" regimen vs. lower volume and higher intensity.

But as hoshie notes, my desire to do the high-intensity stuff grows as my fitness grows.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:1251

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12/16/2014 11:50 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 12/16/2014 10:30 AM
Keith, I totally agree with your assessment on pain and ability to push thru. I am best when fit - then I don't mind hurting. So, my desire and ability to hurt increases w/ fitness which I suppose many guys are like that.


So there is a "trend" now in training. / coaching that deals with "specificity"....IOW, as you get closer to your "A" race, your training should begin to mimic those race demands.



So if my goal is to slug it out 7 days in a row with > 3k metres of climbing each day (21000 m of vertical over the week) needing to meet a 17kph cutoff speed to stay ahead of the broom wagon, how should I train? Maybe y'all can lend me your glorious ability to suffer. Certainly this topic is very much pertinent in terms of goals for 2015. About a handful spots left to join me
C2K_Rider

Posts:173

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12/16/2014 04:24 PM
So there is a "trend" now in training. / coaching that bdeals with "specificity"....IOW, as you get closer to your "A" race, your training should begin to mimic those race demands.

If your big goal of the season is the state RR, you would do more high intensity stuff early in the year and then begin to add distance as you approach the race. This concept is advocated a lot for long-course triathletes. Do high intensity stuff in the winter and then add volume as the race approaches.



intensity builds strength, which leads to faster riding when you do longer distances. However, doing high intensity early and neglecting it later will lead to average speed. Gains from intensity only last so long.. Better is to cycle these and have each cycle build on the previous. Intensity to gain strength and speed, volume to build endurance, intensity to build speed on top of the endurance. Volume to utile endurance on top of speed. intensity tot build more speed. You get the idea. The key thing to figure out is how much to do on each cycle....but you can determine this by doing standard test rides every few weeks to see if you are gaining or stagnating
Keith Richards

Posts:759

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12/17/2014 09:47 AM
Posted By Hoshie S on 12/16/2014 12:00 AM
RPE is really effective if you are "tuned" and know yourself. I find when I get training regularly again, RPE is good and matches my data well.

On a side note, I put the garmin, trainingpeaks, etc away after I got pneumonia in Fall and am now just looking forward to getting back in shape by enjoying riding for a bit. Less stress.

Keith, I totally agree with your assessment on pain and ability to push thru. I am best when fit - then I don't mind hurting. So, my desire and ability to hurt increases w/ fitness which I suppose many guys are like that.

In contrast I have a riding "buddy" who has all the physical tools but he never out climbs me which is embarrassing for him.

I am a short mesomorph sprinter looking guy, and he is tall and willowy, but he just can't suffer. That's the bottom line. He's got better physiology, but soft as a pillow....

j

I think the thing is to ALWAYS have intensity workouts throughout the season. I personally am ALWAYS doing sprint workouts when I am training.

I have seen too many people, especially new riders, who focus on being able to finish long rides at the expense of being able to be fast for 30-50mi. I personally focus on getting my speed up as soon as I get the SLIGHTEST bit of fitness. I know enough about pack riding to stay out of the wind and conserve energy to get me through any ride under 50mi, but if I can't follow the accelerations....buh bye.

Hoshie....that is the guy. At this point I am in his head. He knows he is going to get dropped, it is just a matter of when he throws in the towel. But we both know he will throw in the towel, and that is the problem.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Orange Crush

Posts:1251

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12/17/2014 01:39 PM
When it comes to riding with my friend, I am always THAT guy, the one getting dropped.

Former German track team pursuit champ at age 18, he has an inane ability to go fast and suffer till the lights go out even when he's untrained and out of shape. When Ned Overend put in his his failed attempt at the Mt Baker hillclimb price purse to set a new time record he was there till the very last kms to see it. Whistler GF, he'll started in rec field, ride up to the cat racers and then hang with them, no questions asked.

So when we rode together in our Ontario days. it was always a question of when, not if I'd get dropped. Every training ride was a major sufferfest, every hill or traffic light an interval (not to mention the scary as hell Mennonite German shepards). One of the more memorable rides was an intended 240k loop. With my friend always being late as he is we were off at an appropriate 11 am start. The first 2.5hrs we averaged 40kph to make up time. Did I mention we rode on MTBs? By about 5pm we'd covered 180k on our MTBs and hit the Escarpment. Complete collapse nothing left in the tank or in the jersey pockets to replenish...my wife knows the rest, call of shame, complete sprawled out on side of road, and things like that.

The only time I ever managed to properly turn the tables on him was a ride out to Toronto for a party. He was sick as a dog and I had to pull him pretty much the entire 100k.

Good memories. We don't nearly ride enough together anymore.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1192

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12/17/2014 06:09 PM
Posted By Orange Crush on 12/16/2014 11:50 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 12/16/2014 10:30 AM
Keith, I totally agree with your assessment on pain and ability to push thru. I am best when fit - then I don't mind hurting. So, my desire and ability to hurt increases w/ fitness which I suppose many guys are like that.


So there is a "trend" now in training. / coaching that deals with "specificity"....IOW, as you get closer to your "A" race, your training should begin to mimic those race demands.



So if my goal is to slug it out 7 days in a row with > 3k metres of climbing each day (21000 m of vertical over the week) needing to meet a 17kph cutoff speed to stay ahead of the broom wagon, how should I train? Maybe y'all can lend me your glorious ability to suffer. Certainly this topic is very much pertinent in terms of goals for 2015. About a handful spots left to join me


based on the theory of "specificity", you would be using the winter months to raise your FTP as high as possible. Intervals, threshold work, etc. As you begin to approach your event, you add in more volume and reduce some intensity volume. You still keep doing intensity efforts in order to maintain your increased power, but more and more of your workouts are about distance and volume. Those rides should start to more closely resemble the efforts you expect to put out during the event the closer you get to it.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:1251

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12/17/2014 08:21 PM
Thanks CK.

Volume should be no problem; got a solid plan in place that has worked couple times over. Intensity will require more focus than usual; I had planned to leave that till season warms again (intensity work sucks when its just a handful degrees above freezing and wet) but it sounds like i should get on it. I am working on core strenght right now (rower) which over last couple weeks has made big difference in riding. Double Ventoux ascent is current plan for icing on the training cake. Planning on renting a Dogma from a local shoppe which in absence of proper intensity training should buy me a bit of speed.


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