September 03, 2014 Login  


Another carbon bike question - Trek Domane?
Last Post 05/30/2014 12:01 AM by Steve Gabbard. 31 Replies.
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gabbard

Posts:27

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03/21/2014 10:07 AM
Posted By Orange Crush on 03/20/2014 10:13 AM
I've always wondered what makes a bike endurance...really all you need is a comfy saddle and a good geometry setup. The rest is fluf and sales pitch IMHO, just like all that aero gain voodoo.

Orange Crush,

I agree with you about the marketing fluff term "endurance" (the phrases "comfort", "upright", and "old guy bikes" were probably discarded at the advertising meeting), but these bikes ARE different - look at the geometry and compare to bikes from 5-10 years ago.  I hesitated to use the word "endurance", but I did that to describe a bike geometry that many of us associate with that word - longer head tube, lower bottom bracket, shorter top tube, more tire clearance.  There are lots of riders who will benefit from these bikes - newer riders, fit non-racers, etc.  I have been riding for 40+ years, but due to body proportions combined with aging, injuries, I want a more upright position.  I still don't want to give up performance, and these bikes are just as "fast" as a Madone or Tarmac.  You still have to pedal them, they are no Ducati, but will go if you have the horsepower. 

10 years ago, it would have been more difficult to get this fit of bike in a stock frame that felt like a race bike.  Certainly a custom builder would have done this for you, but harder to find in a normal shop.  So, for many people, a comfy saddle is easy to find, but this type of geometry would have been harder to find to meet your "good geometry setup" part of the equation.

Interestingly, Grant Petersen at Rivendell has been saying this for 15-20 years - lower BB, more tire clearance, higher bars - but he did it in steel and lugs at a high price point.  I owned a Rivendell, and it was probably the most beautiful piece of mechanical art/equipment I have ever or will ever own.  Unfortunately, the seat tube was just too slack and I couldn't get to feel good on it.

In my opinion, if you can like the higher bars and feel, there is no negative to a bike that fits like this.  Many complaints about the Roubaix/Domane/Synapse bikes are that the owner can't get the bars low enough, but they have an alternative - a Tarmac/Madone/Super Six.

Steve




Cosmic Kid

Posts:1063

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03/21/2014 11:16 AM
Posted By Steve Gabbard on 03/20/2014 10:07 AM
I am riding all of the "endurance bikes" that are around - Specialized Roubaix, Cannondale Synapse, Trek Domane, maybe Cervelo R3, maybe Giant Defy. Need to narrow it down to a particular size and parts spec and ride the comparable models.



Quick note - The R3 is not Cervelo's "endurance" bike. The R3 is a pure race bike, with geometry to match. their endurance / comfort / gran fondo / disease ride bike is the RS.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1063

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03/21/2014 11:21 AM
Posted By Orange Crush on 03/20/2014 10:13 AM
I've always wondered what makes a bike endurance...really all you need is a comfy saddle and a good geometry setup. The rest is fluf and sales pitch IMHO, just like all that aero gain voodoo.


Aero technology is not "voodoo". It is real world stuff based in actual science. With data and everything!! If people are looking for pure performance, I don't know why they wouldn't consider an aero road bike. Seems silly not too.....

As for the endurance / comfort / gran fondo / disease ride bikes, there are real differences in the geometry.....longer wheelbases, a bit more relaxed geometry, longer HT, etc. Not all of that can replicated by position and a comfortable saddle. SOME of it absolutely can.....

I kinda see it the same way as aero road bikes....if your goal is "all day" comfort, why wouldn't you consider a gran fondo style bike? Maximize every aspect towards the type of riding that you prefer.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
gabbard

Posts:27

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03/21/2014 12:06 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 03/21/2014 11:16 AM
Posted By Steve Gabbard on 03/20/2014 10:07 AM
I am riding all of the "endurance bikes" that are around - Specialized Roubaix, Cannondale Synapse, Trek Domane, maybe Cervelo R3, maybe Giant Defy. Need to narrow it down to a particular size and parts spec and ride the comparable models.



Quick note - The R3 is not Cervelo's "endurance" bike. The R3 is a pure race bike, with geometry to match. their endurance / comfort / gran fondo / disease ride bike is the RS.

From the current Cervelo website, the RS doesn't exist.  Their R Series bikes consist of R3/R5/Rca.  That is why I said "maybe" about the R3 - the geometry is the same as the R5 and Rca.

pabiker

Posts:80

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03/21/2014 12:13 PM
I'd like to agree with gabbard, my dura-ace equipped CAAD 10 is my endurance bike. Mostly because it fits me, I have a great saddle, and I have that fizik shock absorbing junk under my bar tape.

If by you endurance you mean several 100+ mile rides a month.

Cosmic Kid

Posts:1063

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03/21/2014 01:35 PM
Posted By Steve Gabbard on 03/21/2014 12:06 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 03/21/2014 11:16 AM
Posted By Steve Gabbard on 03/20/2014 10:07 AM
I am riding all of the "endurance bikes" that are around - Specialized Roubaix, Cannondale Synapse, Trek Domane, maybe Cervelo R3, maybe Giant Defy. Need to narrow it down to a particular size and parts spec and ride the comparable models.



Quick note - The R3 is not Cervelo's "endurance" bike. The R3 is a pure race bike, with geometry to match. their endurance / comfort / gran fondo / disease ride bike is the RS.

From the current Cervelo website, the RS doesn't exist.  Their R Series bikes consist of R3/R5/Rca.  That is why I said "maybe" about the R3 - the geometry is the same as the R5 and Rca.

Ah, gotcha.  Didn't realize they had discontinued the RS. 

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1063

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03/21/2014 01:41 PM
Posted By pa biker on 03/21/2014 12:13 PM
I'd like to agree with gabbard, my dura-ace equipped CAAD 10 is my endurance bike. Mostly because it fits me, I have a great saddle, and I have that fizik shock absorbing junk under my bar tape.

If by you endurance you mean several 100+ mile rides a month.


Fair enough....no reason to change something that works for you.



BUT.....just because it "works" doesn't mean there isn't an option out there that works "better." 



Now, it comes down to trade-offs......my guess is that for a rider such as yourself (or me) a "gran fondo" bike has little appeal.  Even though it may be "more" comfortable, there are trade-offs I am not willing to make.  I don't want a more upright position or longer wheelbase, etc.  But my goals / wants for a bike are more performance based, not comfort.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

Posts:1097

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03/21/2014 03:37 PM
I get the longer wheelbase for very long rides, but don't raise my bars much! Very long rides have the very real possibility of long stretches of headwind. Having to ride 60 miles or more with bent arms gets really old. Plus, for me, a bike without enough reach (forward and/or down) is a back killer. (When I "180'd" my commuter which was a touring frame with a long head tube, the bike went from overnight a bike that was a back killer and that I regularly went too deep into oxygen debt on hills to a bike that was comfortable on a hilly 75 mile ride and that I enjoyed the final miles on. (The bike was my fix gear. "180'd" refers to changing the stem from a standard 130 to a custom 180.)

Ben
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1063

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03/21/2014 04:04 PM
But you gotta remember your background and references.....you come from a racing background and are used to a long & low position. I agree....for me, a higher, shorter position would be uncomfortable. We aren't the target audience for these bikes.

But look how may people are out riding around with massive amounts of washers and upturned, shorty stems. The vast majority of the riding public fits into that category.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

Posts:1097

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03/21/2014 07:53 PM
Aren't we talking endurance bikes? How many of the people "out riding around with massive amounts of washers and upturned, shorty stems" are riding hundred+ mile rides?

Ben
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1063

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03/22/2014 12:07 AM
A lot....in terms of a goal of either a disease ride, selected century or gran fondo.

Are they knocking out those rides on a regular basis? Heck no. Which is all the more reason why a "endurance" bike is perfect for them.

Back in the day, I developed one of the first, if not the first, "disease ride" bike. We were under pressure to do a sloped TT bike cause that was the " trend". As the guy in charge if road bikes, I didn't want to because everyone was doing it. So we developed a "comfort road" bike, which gave us a sound reason for doing a sloped TT. Longer head tube (for comfort) meant you had to slope the TT to maintain the stand over height.

Those models quickly outsold our traditional road bikes.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

Posts:1097

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03/22/2014 02:04 AM
C.K., what is a "disease ride"? (I keep picturing a ride that requires either a vaccine or quarantine after.)

Ben
Orange Crush

Posts:1165

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03/22/2014 08:32 AM
Disease ride, haha, that is funny; I know exactly what you mean.

But a Gran Fondo isn't enduro; that's how long rides are meant to be.

Now if I was travelling the globe I might want a comfort bike.
THE SKINNY

Posts:381

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03/22/2014 10:29 AM
when i got fitted several months ago, the guy said i needed a shortish ett somewhere less than 60cm and a head tube of greater than 20cm. most of the endurance bikes mentioned fit the bill although i can't afford one right now. interestingly, a lot of touring bikes have a long ett and short head tube. 3" to 4" of spacers and an upturned short stem are the norm which makes them look ridiculous. even the old standby surly long haul trucker is more racy than touristy.
How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1063

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03/22/2014 09:41 PM
Ben...."disease ride" = MS150 and other similar charity rides.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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