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The Phil Wood "q" vs the Shimano "Q"
Last Post 08/21/2020 01:04 PM by Orange Crush. 17 Replies.
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79pmooney

Posts:3178

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07/28/2019 12:15 PM
I've been running a splined Hollow Tech 105 9-speed triple crankset and BB on the TiCycles since new.  Beautiful crankset.  Shifts beautifully,  Only gripe is the the outer ring picks up the chain too well and makes small-small crossovers difficult.  (DT friction, so still easily done.)  But the Q-factor!  Symmetrical BB (like most/all Shimano and the cranks had that sexy curve away fro the bike.  Crank misses the big-small chain-line by a mile.

Now, I had this set up as a 53-42-28, my all-time favorite gears, but my knees and body have been tell ng me to go 24 or stop doing the really hard hills.  (BUt I did have that crankset on a symmetrical Shimano BB, so there was romm for improvement on that score.  Cranks are old Specialized I believe, clearly made by SR or Sugino and old-school straight!)  I went 50-38-24 for my gravel setup on the Mooney.  My knees said "yes!"  Well the Mooney is back to fix gear service while my ti fix gear is having its fork painted.  So I took the 105 crankset off the TiCycles and put the gravel setup on.  Much better!  But still a lot of Q-factor and now my two most ridden bikes are that and the super-low Q Mooney.  My knees have been feeling the difference, preferring to ride fixed!

Well, the cranks are straight,  Nothing to be gained there.  I can tweak the cleats maybe a little but wearing out cranks is getting old.  What's left?  The bottom bracket.  Time for a Phil!  Measured up my Shimano 118.6, mounter the cranks and measured crank to chainstay (left) and to chain in high gear (right).  Noted chainline (actually about a full cog too far out.)  Calculated a new from-scratch BB what would have comfortable minimum clearances at chain and stay.  A 105 2mm offset should do it.  Went to the Phil Wood website.  Rats, the 105 isn't in stock.  Emailed them, saying "I want it and I am willing to wait".  They  E-mailed me back that they had some just hadn't updated the site yet.  Go back and try again.  Two days later it was in my hands; this short little BB!  Put is no last night, setting it up .2 mm to the right just in case.  Clearances are right on!  Misses the chain.  About 4mm off the left stay, 6mm right!

Now, my Dura-Ace triple FD wan now a fish out of water.  No one at Shimano ever dreamed anyone would want an FD that needed to travel that far inboard.  Barely could get the chain to drop onto the small cog even on the tiny gears in back.  Hmmph!  An old SunTour?  Those AR do this geometry in their sleep.  Ahh but!! The the old SunTours are for 26.8 seatposts!  My box full on them won't help at all.  Looked at the FD again.  OK, the issue is the really wide cage at the bottom.  I often narrowed up the SunTours to speed up middle to inner shifts, but Shimano bent the Dura-Ace cage into a big block "U".  No help there.  But, suppose I add material to the inside of the cage?  Bent a scrap of aluminum sheet around the cage.  Micky-mouse.  But I tried it and shifting was "ahhh!" fast.  I'm going to ride it now.  I don't expect it to hold up.  Betting 5 successful shifts then it gets trashed, pulled off and eaten by the chain.  Since everything except the chainrings and pulleys in the system is hardened steel, I doubt much damage will happen.  And if it works, the cage comes off the bike, a piece of steel gets epoxied on, the bike goes on and my knees say thank you!

And to justify those not-very-cheap Phil Wood BBs - stainless steel BBs are much cheaper than even just the co-pay for those custom titanium knees.

Having fun in my sandbox!  Up to now, everything on my first TiCycles has been done "correctly".  Now it is time to bend the rules and make it "right".

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/09/2019 03:51 PM
Got Jessica J back Wednesday from TiCycles and Black Magic Paint. Measured its Q-factor. 132. (Stock Miche BB, Sugino 75 crank.) Confirms one of the reasons I love riding that bike. Went for a short ride yesterday. (Was going to go up to Bald Peak but it was grizzling, traffic pretty heavy and staying crash free just seemed more important. Plus I was making a mess even with fenders of my freshly spiffed bike. It's never been this clean before, even new.)
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

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08/09/2019 09:07 PM
Hope this is not heresy, just observing that this former as low as possible or even lower Q advocate has enjoyed a wider Q angle as his joints have aged. Which is fortunate, as the low Q options of our youth have vanished. And also observing that unlike back in the day, the current pro peloton rider's knees no longer brush the top tube. And look at Sagan, knees way wide, and near as I can tell that dude is plenty fast. Back in the day it was understood if the paint on the top tube was tarnished by the rider's knees. You won't find that anymore. Was it better back then? It had a certain elegance, like skinny rims and small tires, but you can't stop progress. Ben, consider your modern options.
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/10/2019 01:27 AM
lsd, my knees still like brushing the top tube. I'm still battling the knee condition i was diagnosed with in 1978. I have yet to talk to an orthopedic surgeon and hear that the doctor who diagnosed me was wrong or that his prognosis has changed.

My knees have been drifting out over the years. They've been feeling worse. I've paid attention sometimes in recent rides to brusihng the top tube and every time I do it, it works and my knees thank me.

Those knees keep telling me that what is happening in the bike industry might be "progress" but it is not "good". And the pro peloton? I'm not sure I could have brushed the top tube in my racing days riding some of the Q-factors now. (No one ever told me to brush the top tube. After my chrondomalcia set in, I found that was what I had to do to ride and race.)

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/14/2019 01:52 PM
I tackled my final "bad" bike, my Competition. Had a Q-factor of 164. Pulled the cranks and BB. Shiimano 128.5! Went ot my favorite coop and picked out a pristine 110 Sugino spindle and near pristine cups, drive SunTour and non-drive Tange (with matching rubber seals and near matching details though not finishes, I'm huessing Tange made both.

Put the BB in with fresh balls and marine grease. NO way either crank is going to work! So pop can shims, yet again, but this time I used a trick I learned on-line. Cut the shims to rectangle the length of the taper times two plus the taper width at the outboard end. Bent them into "U"s and inserted them from the inside. Tapped the cranks on gently with a mallet. Poked a hole though the shims with an awl. Drilled them out with a bit too big to get into the spindle. (Messy. The shims tore up badly.) Ignored the mess, started the crank bolts and tightened.

Right crank tightened to a perfect chainline. Left to 3mm off the bottom bracket. Pretty hard to argue with. Q-factor is still 150 but I think I am going to feel the improvement. I could get another 5mm with thinner shim material taking everything to very close to hitting the chainstays but I am not going to bother. At least not this year.

So I now have Q-factors of:

TiCycles 139
Jessica J 132
Mooney 135
Trek 137
Competition 150

Let's see what my knees think? Sunday, I'll ride Jessica J for the Portland Century with 8 miles to and from. 4200 feet of climbing. Looks like about 10% max. I'm thinking to go 43 x 13, 17 and 23.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/20/2020 02:39 PM
Round two, TiCycles.

I never got really good FD shifting with that last setup. Q = 139!, 50-38-24. FD didn't shift down to the 24 reliably and quickly making unexpected steep hills no fun. There was a real no-man;s land n the (probably 5,6-speed crankset between outer and middle. Also, clearances to frame were VERY close!. Some damage done. And I tried probably 6-8 FDs, again probably 2-3 times for each one. Massacred the seat tube paint.

Round two. New (splurge, ti!) Phil BB 3 mm wider. (Actually 5 mm for the cranks. A little disappointed in PW QC but not a big deal.) So, not huge, but comfortable clearances. Those cranks can come on and ff many more times.

Shifting - I believe I am all there. When I post this I'm suiting up and seeing. I had a mini brainstorm that you could run a braze-on FD on a 34.9 mm braze-on style clamp and use a reducer to 31.8 that was asymmetrical. Had Dave Levy make that reducer. Beautiful work as always! Put it on last night. Mounted a Dura-Ace Triple FD. It shifts so easily to the inner ring I have it stopped with probably an 1/8" or more to go. No issues getting up to the big ring and clearing the narrow cranks. Now, the gap between the rings. Well, how 'bout a Shimano-like approach? Pins to keep the chain out. Now the outer ring is an older, early Shimano pinned, ramped and everything else molded aluminum part. Thick. Perfectly safe to drill in the thick places, So I drilled (4) #10 screw holes as close to evenly around the perimeter as I could on the 5 arms . Ran round head screws from the inside and nutted with Nylocs. The screws are right beside the inner teeth. Now, the chain wouldn't sit on the inner so I Dremmeled off some of the outer portion of the head and kept trial fitting and grinding until everything worked. There is now little enough head that disassembly isn't feasible. So, again, like Shimano, this is now part of that chainring.

So, now, Q = 144. Shifting seems to be world class (old-school DT friction. (Seems - I have to ride it!) FD and shim/clamp simply look like they all belong. Chainrings look odd as they are completely mismatched but with the rather solid looking outer ring, you real don't notice the misfits.

I also replaced the RD hanger with a steel one. (Original aluminum was was bent. I straightened it but don't like riding aluminum that has seen that.) Laid a straightedge on the hanger and saw it/the dropout was off 1/4" vertically at the rim. Tried bending it straight with an old axle but I am not that strong and I wasn't doing my new hernia any good. (Well maybe I was. I think it wants to grow up and be healthy and big.)

Then another small brainstorm. I have the perfect tool! A 12" crescent wrench. Ran a piece of masking tape down one side of the hanger (on the bike) and up the other. Got a very low stool to sit on. Placed one foot against the stays at the dropout and pulled on the wrench. Easy! Going back and forth between tweaks, pulling one side of the tape down, laying the straight edge on was also fast. A fancy hanger tool is now off my wish list. What I have on hand works too well. (And are tools I will always have and will always know where they are or where to find another one. Take up zero additional storage space and store very neatly.)

So, here goes!

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/20/2020 11:54 PM
Just rode easy. But easy climbing was fun! Gears worked super. All except once I double-shifted onto the inner and "locked up" the chain on the crankset. Had to backpedal (but not stop) to do it. I think I have to do the same 'pinning" for the inner

Except that, the FD shifted super. I can tell the FD and chain are shifting over wider spaces than they are "used to" or designed for and my fingers are not trained yet. Real blessing - quiet in every chain combo. Not super slinky quiet, but perfectly decent. Adjusting the FD for no rub - now easy in every combo. I forgot to try small-small (the combo that I never use "going easy"; that's the ballls to the wall gear when the hill levels out and I don't want to double shift and do it again when the grade comes back.

Tweaked a few other points on the bike and lubed everything. One happy bike! and now the best climbing machine (for this aging body) I have ever ridden. A pleasure to loaf up 2000'.

The other blessing I just take for granted -this bike, my first TiCycles, fits like a dream. 47 miles of pure pleasure and 10 miles of that was not flat!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:4209

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08/21/2020 08:59 AM
I love the fact that as the world evolves to more and more 1x systems (which I don't necessarily agree with), Ben steadfastly adheres to his 3x and MacGyvers new ways to make it work!
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Dale

Posts:1767

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08/21/2020 11:24 AM
I'm small frame and a wide q-factor ends up hurting my hips.

The only 3x I run is on my tandem, 2x on the road bike and gravel bike (aka CX B bike), and 1x on may mbt and cross race bike. Different horses for different courses. No way I'd do 1x on a road bike. I like the tighter gear spacing. MBT and cross racing? 1x is fine and I never drop a chain.
Tandem... 3x to grind it up the climbs and hammer the downhills*

*Mrs Dale does not appreciate the 40+ mph downhills so the Garmin is on the captains stem only and top speed is not always disclosed.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:4209

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08/21/2020 11:31 AM
I could run a 1x around here and a normal cassette with no issue. In fact, a SRAM AXS set-up here would be almost worthless....it would be maybe a 6 spd bike with big gaps in between. Blech.

My gravel / CX bike is 1x, but I think I am going to make it double....at DK last year, I ran a 40x36 and something smaller would have been appreciated. So I'll probably go to a 44/36 CR set-up....more top end than I'll ever need on gravel and a 1:1 in the back.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

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08/21/2020 11:59 AM
I have 3x on my commuter. Recently used the tiny ring going up the Gatensbury Gasp.

It’s a $4M bike path to nowhere that goes up a 2km climb that pitches to 18%.

Quite legendary locally in that it isn’t particularly practical. Although the local residents love it seeing that they didn’t even have a sidewalk previously. So now they can actually visit each other safely.

I also sometimes need that tiny ring on my regular commute early season. The trek home is only 3km ride but my hometown is a bit like streets of San Francisco. Yes they filmed scenes of Godzilla in our downtown. So no, a 1x setup iI would never consider.
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/21/2020 12:13 PM
Posted By Dale Dale on 08/21/2020 11:24 AM
I'm small frame and a wide q-factor ends up hurting my hips.

The only 3x I run is on my tandem, 2x on the road bike and gravel bike (aka CX B bike), and 1x on may mbt and cross race bike. Different horses for different courses. No way I'd do 1x on a road bike. I like the tighter gear spacing. MBT and cross racing? 1x is fine and I never drop a chain.
Tandem... 3x to grind it up the climbs and hammer the downhills*

*Mrs Dale does not appreciate the 40+ mph downhills so the Garmin is on the captains stem only and top speed is not always disclosed.

Dale, one of my all-time great descents - 2018 Cycle Oregon.  Coming down out of the Blue Mountains east of Pendlelton.  Got on the wheel of a single glued to a young couple's tandem at the top of the climb.  Windy, old road descent, OK pavement.  We all knew this was the last descent of the week.  The tandem crew was good!  They flew.  Captain's voice was like an airhorn.  Day six.  Everyone knew what was happening.  Train coming through.  Stay right!

I backed off a little in traffic and corners and had to chase on a couple of times.  Hard but OK.  Then, 2/3s down this incredible sleigh ride, the rider in front of me came off.  By the time I realized it, I was 10 yards back.  I made it back on, but it was shades of racing!  Watching the race pull away, then giving it everything I had to get back on.  Got back on spent!  (To a big cheer from the stoker.)

Fun, fun, fun!  That tandem team was fearless and talented.  My descent was an order of magnitude faster than I could do alone.  (That chase - on an easier stretch of the descent - was proof.

Sadly, now my bike is geared low enough that I don't think I would have succeeded in that chase.  50-12.  That was a 53-12 and I needed all of it.
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

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08/21/2020 12:16 PM
Also Tom Boonen recently invested in and promoted a company that replaces front derailleur with a 2x internal rear hub married to a conventional rear d.
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/21/2020 12:30 PM
Posted By Orange Crush on 08/21/2020 11:59 AM
I have 3x on my commuter. Recently used the tiny ring going up the Gatensbury Gasp.

It’s a $4M bike path to nowhere that goes up a 2km climb that pitches to 18%.

Quite legendary locally in that it isn’t particularly practical. Although the local residents love it seeing that they didn’t even have a sidewalk previously. So now they can actually visit each other safely.

I also sometimes need that tiny ring on my regular commute early season. The trek home is only 3km ride but my hometown is a bit like streets of San Francisco. Yes they filmed scenes of Godzilla in our downtown. So no, a 1x setup iI would never consider.

What's the vertical on the Gasp?  The climb I've been doing is 1140'/347m in 2.3 miles/3.7km at 9% average and probably 18% in two corners.

I grew up with two hills to nowhere; up Blue Hill to the weather observatory (biggest hill outside Boston, MA) and Chickatawbut Hill, a smaller and considerably steeper climb in those same hills.  Did Blue Hill many times (base two miles from home) but Chickatawbut was gated off (despite being metro park land) because the top was a Cold War anti-aircraft missile base.
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

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08/21/2020 12:32 PM
I’d say vertical is only 300 to 400 feet or so. That typical range for in town climbs. The funny part is the new pathways ends on about 10 m of goat track before spitting you out on someone’s driveway covered in fancy slate. Then you’re back on a narrow road w no cycling provisions.
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