these newfangled aero helmets...
Last Post 04/22/2014 04:16 PM by Keith Jackson. 95 Replies.
Author Messages
jacques_anquetil

Posts:220

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03/24/2014 12:09 PM
...are just plain fugly. they look no better than those horrible first generation Brancale helmets we used to wear back in the day.





jrt1045

Posts:361

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03/24/2014 12:30 PM
what that living just inside Sean Kelly's jersey? He needs some rodent control
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/25/2014 11:38 PM
They may be ugly, but they are fast.

And the key phrase was "first-gen". The next round will be sleeker undoubtedly.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Hoshie

Posts:114

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03/26/2014 01:55 PM
Check out the LG Course; aero and a regular looking road helmet.

It's also pretty comfortable and well vented (for my noggin anyway).

J
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/26/2014 02:56 PM
I have said it before and I will say it again. For the pros, where every seconds (and their paycheck) counts....sure.

For everyone else...don't do it.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/26/2014 04:57 PM
Hoshie is correct about the LG Course helmet. Most tests indicate that it is faster than a regular road helmet, but not qute as fast as a TT lid. The Specialized Evade apparently tests a bit better than the Course, but the COurse looks much more like a normal road lid.

Keith, my take is on these lids is similar to aero road frames - if you are a performance-based cyclist, then you should be considering it. Use every advantage you can to your benefit......

I'm not saying dump what you are using now, but when it comes time to get something new, they should be strongly considered. And the reality is that for the lids, they are gonna become much more of the "norm" before too long....so if you want that advantage, be an early adopter!!
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
6ix

Posts:126

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03/27/2014 07:43 AM
I really can't get past how unbelievably dorky these helmets look!! Maybe I'm a victim of fashion but I've purchased new helmets simply because of the styling or graphics. I'm not alone, that's for certain. The POC helmets are even worse! In fact, I really can't imagine how a helmet could be made any uglier.

Kinda similar to Google Glass. Sure, it's super advanced but not yet accepted by a general audience. It looks weird and, frankly, dorky. Same thing with these aero helmets. They may be fast but they have a LONG way to go before they are desirable at all. Things started going downhill when the UCI made it mandatory that aero helmets be protective rather than a fairing. Again, I'm only talking about the aesthetics, not safety. Not going to argue about that.

My final point is that it's much easier to get people to actually use a safety device when it doesn't look dumb.
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/27/2014 08:17 AM
^^^What this guy said!!!!

I am using a NOS Giro for this exact reason.
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/27/2014 09:28 AM
Well, you certainly aren't gonna get me to defend the styling of those lids, that's for sure....and don't even get me started on the POC lids. And if the style of the helmets is important, I get that...but just understand what you are leaving on the table in terms of performance.

But as I said, these are just the first-gen aero road lids. They are gonna improve....and the LG Course is already a good lid aero-wise and looks like a normal lid.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/27/2014 11:39 AM
I have a problem with the phrase, "leaving on the table in terms of performance," when it comes to a helmet. There are way too many variables in a mass start road race for anyone to say that the aerodynamics of their helmet improved their performance.

In time trials...ok. Maybe. But a mass start event? I have yet to see any evidence to see that these helmets make a difference that made real world sense.

Does anybody really think that helmet aerodynamics made any difference in either finales yesterday?
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Oldfart

Posts:484

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03/27/2014 02:54 PM
I can't say I notice any aero benefit at all from m Air attack. But the lack of vents keeps the sun off my hairless head and that is a benefit for the fishbellywhite guys like me. I like how the Giro looks though. Clean and smooth, no fins or other oddities. I find those Orbea helmets odd looking. Like they are sideways or something.
79pmooney

Posts:1155

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03/27/2014 05:34 PM
Andy, wear a Pace skull cap. I use them year-round. So many benefits, I never ride without. Keeps sweat out of my eyes in summer and means I can use a lot less suntan over my eyes so less risk of that getting in my eyes. Really big benefit - keeps my helmet (and hats in cooler weather) clean! I use a clean cap each ride and toss in with the laundry when I get home. Never have to put my head into a stinking helmet (and wash my helmets far less often). The Pace skullcaps don't have tails or anything else in back except a toggle that fits nicely above the helmet band in every helmet I've used so with helmet it is near invisible.

REI carries them for about $15 US.

Ben
Oldfart

Posts:484

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03/27/2014 06:33 PM
No Pace in Canada Ben. As far as I can tell anyway. There are others that I have tried but they seem to be one size fits others. I can usually overwhelm any sweat holder thing anyway so i I don't bother. This sweat buster does work pretty well though .http://www.traxfactory.com/ I got one for free and should probably get a few more. It makes my Lazer helmet usable. I don't know why but the Lazer Genesis funnels sweat into my right eye. And with essentially no hair, I am plenty cool.
longslowdistance

Posts:694

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03/27/2014 08:52 PM
OF, I have the same issues with too little hair and too much sweat, and have had pretty good luck with the headsweats "shorty". The little tail seems to carry away a lot of moisture. I use the plain headsweats beanie under ski and motorcycle helmets to keep them cleaner. It's like the pace but I think a little thinner.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/27/2014 09:18 PM
Posted By Keith Jackson on 03/27/2014 11:39 AM
I have a problem with the phrase, "leaving on the table in terms of performance," when it comes to a helmet. There are way too many variables in a mass start road race for anyone to say that the aerodynamics of their helmet improved their performance.

In time trials...ok. Maybe. But a mass start event? I have yet to see any evidence to see that these helmets make a difference that made real world sense.

Does anybody really think that helmet aerodynamics made any difference in either finales yesterday?


Watts saved is watts saved....sure, the benefit is smaller when riding in a bunch, but the laws of physics don't get suspended in the peloton. And wattage saved anywhere is energy you have at the end of the race. It is not all about the sprint to the line. And regardless of the variables involved, an aero lid will be faster...period. Will it make a difference in your result, as it related to placing? Dunno....but your result will be "better". Specialized's data below.....including a 200m sprint.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/27/2014 09:30 PM
Look, if the average racer actually believes that their helmet is going to make a two bike length difference in their sprint...I just saw an ad that said it could add 2".

The irony of you pulling that out is that chart is my exhibit "A" for the ridiculousness of this aero thing for the average recreational racer.

So yeah, you finished 13th in the 1/2/3 race by a wheel. Thanks to your helmet.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/27/2014 10:31 PM
Well, I never said that an aero road lid will make a winner out of someone who is middle of the pack. Clearly it won't....but it is gonna make you faster.

You asked for evidence that it makes a real world difference....I gave you evidence (albeit Specialized's) that show a significant difference in a sprint. Unfortunately it is impossible to test these things in "real world" situations because you can never duplicate such a sprint exactly. So you have to rely on the data that is repeatable and extrapolate.

There is a company called ERO sports that does aero testing on the velodrome, so it is a bit more "real world" than a wind tunnel (although you lose the ability to test at yaw angles)....all their tests have shown the Evade to be significantly faster than a road lid and faster than many TT lids. ERO is independent and develops their own testing criteria....but they don't publish the actual data since it is usually commissioned by other companies or individuals.

If I was racing right now, I would absolutely rock an Evade....assuming I could find one, of course. Damn things are impossible to find right now.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/28/2014 11:05 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 03/27/2014 10:31 PM
So you have to rely on the data that is repeatable and extrapolate.



As a person who deals with scientific studies I have a problem with data that is generated with so many variables left unaddressed, unaccounted for or not reported. If someone want to rely on that data to inform their helmet purchase for mass start racing, that is their bag. I will take a pass. Especially at that price point.
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/28/2014 05:12 PM
I think you are misrepresenting the data generated from wind tunnel tests a bit. It is controllable and repeatable, which is the goal with scientific testing. It also presents as complete a overall picture as possible. Extrapolating data is also an accepted practice.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/28/2014 06:51 PM
Most wind tunnel testing I've seen ignores the fact that cyclist rock side to side when pedaling. Wind tunnel data is great for cars, planes, boats that move forward without a lot of side to side motion.

When you get flow over a stationary object it's not the same as flow over an object to is pitching side to side perpendicular to the direction of the flow.

They ignore it because adding that degree of freedom makes the problem harder to solve.
Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/28/2014 07:05 PM
I was just reading an article where they for first time used computational fluid dynamics (CFD) to look at problem of how much drafting saves in energy when riding in a group. This was first time someone was able to look at that question with state of the art CFD. Yet, some of the assumptions they had to make were pretty laughable.

The one interesting outcome was that riding in a peleton not only is better for guys drafting but also for the front guy just because of way air moves around group as a whole. Oh, and also, the best position in a reasonably sized group is second to last. But obviously that is only from an aero perspective, it ignores the elastic band effect.

As Keith said, so many variables in a race. There is a lot of random motion going on in a peleton which will tend to negate/reduce a lot of benefits one can get from equipment, none of which is incorporated in either wind tunnel testing of CFD.

And for us commoners, the benefits always get overstated cause the numbers provided are always for top end speed where gains are greatest (that 2 m on a 200 m sprint is @ 1000W).
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/28/2014 08:24 PM
Except that a lot of wind tunnel testing is done with riders actually pedaling a bike at power....IOW, they are riding as they would on the road.

No, it is not all WT testing, but a lot....

The data is out there...aerodynamics play a larger role in performance than we previously thought / believed. And helmets are one of the best, fastest and cheapest way to get some additional watts.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/28/2014 08:35 PM
Yes, pedaling a bike at power and all that but sitting still otherwise.

This is a nice article
http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/bikes-and-gear-features/wind-tunnel-obsolete

"Talk to enough people in the bike industry and, perhaps after a beer or two, they’ll admit that wind tunnels are finicky and produce impossible-to-replicate results. They use simplistic environmental conditions that don’t reflect the complexity of real-world conditions, from how a rider may shift position under a hard effort to the way that crosswinds can swirl around an object."

Back to the sprint, its almost never in a straight line is it. Lot of random motions in that sprint.

Maybe a wind tunnel replicates a tri effort
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/28/2014 10:10 PM
Seriously? We are citing Bicycling magazine? Was this article in the same issue as the "12 Weeks to Your Best Century" plan? Oh wait....that is EVERY issue.

Seriously though, I never said WT testing was perfect....but it is the best tool available. And the idea that it can't replicate crosswinds is flat-out wrong.

I don't buy any of the specific claims that companies make as it pertains to time saved, etc. Way too specific and can't replicate the actual changing wind conditions on a course, etc. But it absolutely can tell you that aero road lids are faster than standard road lids. We can quibble all day about how much faster, but the data that it is, indeed, faster is irrefutable.

So my question is very simple - why would you choose equipment that you KNOW is slower when evaluating equipment options? Conversely, why wouldn't you choose equipment that can give you an advantage over your competition?

My prediction - within 3 years (5 at the outside) every single person on this board who races will be in an aero road lid.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/29/2014 12:43 AM
It's only the likes of Cervelo and Mavic that are realizing the limitations of wind tunnels and are looking for these alternatives CK. You would have got that if you chose to read the article :-P

And you would also have gotten the point that it is not that wind tunnels can't do crosswinds, the point is wind tunnels don't do rapidly varying conditions that one sees in the real world. That's exactly their downfall. Everything in a wind tunnel is steady. That's how the experiments are set up. Idealized conditions.

I'm not doubting that these new lids are faster but when someone starts posting examples of 2 m gains on a 200 m sprint under a set of highly idealized conditions never to be replicated in reality then that's time for some serious hoho.

If we cannot buy the claimed advantage of these aero lids, then the key question becomes, what is the actual advantage of those lids? Marketing hype or is there some real marginal advantage and that is the magnitude of that advantage?

Your prediction is probably right simply because the market is getting flooded.
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/29/2014 06:12 AM
Agree with OC. The "data" you are seeing is marketing data and people buy products based on marketing all the time.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/29/2014 10:55 AM
OC, I specifically noted the limitations of WT in terms of translating that to real-world conditions. This is exactly why I don't buy into claims that say "xxx seconds/ minutes saved." People always want to know which *insert product here* is "fastest". The answer is "no one knows." But you can determine which products are "faster."

IOW, the data can be taken directionally to make informed choices. If I am in the market for a new helmet, and I am a bike racer, why wouldn't I seriously consider a helmet that makes me "faster"? In a sport where the differences can be the width of a tire, seems like it would be a smart choice.

Here is an example I have used before - Cancellara winning stage 3 of the 2007 TdF. He is on the Cervelo S3 and wins the stage by the slimmest of margins. Wild he have won had have been on an R3 (round tubes)? Dunno....but I'll betcha he was glad he was on the S3.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BJNLMYpr2TM

The gains made by wearing an aero lid are real, measurable and significant. This has been proven time & time again. In the wind tunnel (and on the velodrome), some aero road lids have been shown to produce results just below those of full TT lids. Given that, can you explain what laws of physics would make these helmets not have speed advantages over standard road helmets in the "real world"?



Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
jacques_anquetil

Posts:220

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03/29/2014 11:19 AM
thanks for filling the sails of this discussion, fellas! (on second thought, that's probably a poor metaphor choice.)
Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/29/2014 11:25 AM
"I specifically noted the limitations of WT in terms of translating that to real-world conditions."

"The gains made by wearing an aero lid are real, measurable and significant."

Sighhh...science and marketing is like science and politics.

Where do I claim there newfangled lids are not faster? What I question is the term "significant". I am going to tell you that statement would not hold up if one wanted to publish current data in a scientific setting.
Funk

Posts:22

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03/29/2014 11:55 AM
I saw a guy wearing a time trial helmet on RAGBRAI a few years back. For those of you unfamiliar, RAGBRAI is a leisure ride where you shuffle along 10 miles at a time and then eat pie and drink beer for an hour. I think this is the crux of why some of us get cranky re: aero this and lightweight that. 99% of cyclists will never get to the point where an aero lid will make much of a difference. I think CK is right, technically. They are probably a little bit faster. Makes sense. If I'm Cancellara or Tony Martin or whomever, yes, absolutely. If I'm a cat 4 farting around on the weekend, I'm probably flushing money where I shouldn't be. My .02 cents.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/29/2014 01:51 PM
OC, you can test aerodynamics of helmets by yourself....no wind tunnel needed.

Find a nice flat 1K course on a calm morning. Hit the start at a given speed, hold constant power for 1k. Lather, rinse repeat. Change helmets....repeat process. Differences are real, measurable and significant.


Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

Posts:1155

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03/29/2014 05:15 PM
Funk, doesn't that faster helmet get you to more beer and more and better choices of pie? And isn't that a more real gain than say 6" of podium elevation?

Ben
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/29/2014 05:39 PM
CK is this math correct for the test you want OC to run ? For total change in CdA of 0.01 he should see about a 5watt delta , assuming OC can hold about 25 mph. Two things make this test really hard to do. 1) exact same speed from test to test. Not sure about you but I find that almost impossible to do. My speed will vary +\- 0.5 mph no matter how close I try and hold it. 2) assuming he can hold the same speed, he has to hold his body, head, arms, feet pretty much everything in the exact same position from one test to the next. Really, really hard to do since you get no feed back if you change anything. There will be no number on a screen to watch to tell him he held his finger out in test # 2 It's easy to debate this stuff, it is really really hard to test it. The point is the guys doing the tests have the best data have a vested interest in the results. You don't spend a ton of the bosses money and tell him at the end of the day, that was fun but we didn't get any results that mean much.
Dale

Posts:493

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03/29/2014 09:16 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 03/29/2014 01:51 PM
Differences are real, measurable and significant.



Mike? Mike Sinyard, is that you?

CK, you know I love you man, but that is such a load of hooie. The claim of 2 meters in a 200 meter sprint doesn't even begin to pass the sniff test.

While I do generally agree with the premises that given a choice pick the more aero gear there are other factors--

Cost

Aesthetics

Fit

Ventilation-- in the case of helmets

Stability-- I sold some wheels that were wonderfully fast but scared the crap out of me in gusty side winds

Ride quality-- I'll take a better ride where I'm fresh(er) at the end of a race as opposed to a marginally faster frame set that's beat me up for several hours

Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/29/2014 09:26 PM
Ride on - you are arguing both sides of the coin. You are claiming that the helmets don't make that big of a difference, but then you are worried about OC "holding his finger out" on test #2. That would imply that minor differences in an aero profile make measurable differences in results.

Given that an aero road lid has been shown to have a major impact on an aero profile, then it stands to reason that if you are worried about a finger hanging out, than an aero road helmet will show a significant gain in speed. Thanks for proving my point.

The reason you limit the test to ~1k stretch of road is precisely so you can eliminate as much of the variables as possible. And you don't just do it once.....you do it multiple times with both lids and compare the aggregate results. And I didn't say hold a constant speed, I said constant power. Set your computer for a 10" avg display and it is much easier to hold power constant.

Pretty basic stuff.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/29/2014 10:50 PM
The point is , sticking your finger out will change your drag more than the differences between two helmets . I know you know that. The time difference is going to be around 1 sec. That is really hard to measure accurately with a guy on a bike doing 25 mph
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/29/2014 11:24 PM
Posted By Ride On on 03/29/2014 10:50 PM
The point is , sticking your finger out will change your drag more than the differences between two helmets . I know you know that.


You're serious?

No, I don't *know* that.....but I'd like to see your data that shows it.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/30/2014 12:45 AM
What do you call significant CK?
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/30/2014 08:13 AM
No one has "test" data on sticking your finger out because they can't then market you something to warrant the test. Why waste test time which is expensive for no company gain and in some ways could be used to unsell some of your own products if people find out the numbers you have been telling them is all noise.

If I didn't feel wrong about using the companies CFD software and computer time to run a cycling flow analysis I'd whip you up a nice comparison of finger in versus finger out. I'd make enough assumptions that I'd prove myself right.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 08:21 AM
It depends on the rider and their position....but a drop in power of 20w (or more) can be pretty common.

Now those kinds if numbers are usually seen with a full TT lid. But as noted previously, the Evade tests pretty close to some TT helmets. Jordan Rapp (arguably the best US male triathlete) had a 5w difference between the Specialized McLaren TT helmet and the Evade. Pretty small delta (but also significant enough for him to chose the McLaren when allowed).
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/30/2014 09:03 AM
20 watts under what conditions?



To me a 5 second delta in a test such as this is not significant. Bike is being held straight up and down with no wobbling. In the real world, anything I save by taping up my helmet I would immediately give back if I reach down and adjust my cycling shorts. And just to remind you, we are talking about these mass start aero helmets, not TT specific wear. Also, as I pointed out last season, not a SINGLE aero lid was worn on climbing days in the big stage races. Ventilation trumps aero when the road goes up.

Sweating this stuff at the level everyone here races at is just silly. Great for the bike business tho. Shop to you drop!
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/30/2014 09:43 AM
Not many "areo" lids today in Gent Wevelgem. They seem to pull them out when it's cold , other than that they stay in the truck.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 09:44 AM
??? You are comparing one aero lid against another in that pic. IOW, you are trying to decide which is "fastest" among already proven "fast" helmets. I agree that such an endeavor is a fool's errand.

But that isn't what we are talking about - we are talking about significant differences between a standard road helmet and an aero road helmet (which as noted is close to being on par with some of the best TT lids).

As for your "pulling on your shorts" example, we have discussed this before. They are mutually exclusive and not related. If you are gonna tug on your shorts, you are gonna tug on your shorts. Has nothing to do with what helmet you are wearing. And in either case, if you tug on your shorts, having an aero lid will still let you be faster when you do it.

Tests have shown that wearing aero helmets does not increase core body temperature any more than a normal helmet. Now, that does not mean it doesn't "feel" hotter because you lose some evaporative powers and it seems like you are sweating more (you're not....it is just not evaporating as much). But perception is a powerful thing...and this is why riders often dump the aero lids for the MTB stages.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/30/2014 09:54 AM
In E3 the other day Sagan took the win over his 3 breakaway companions each who had "aero" lids on. Silly man he should have listen to the CdA numbers.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/e3-harelbeke-2014/photos/298613

Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/30/2014 10:39 AM
CK - please provide a reference showing that 20W difference. And not a full TT lid.

Based on a well known MIT reference study the advantage of a full TT lid over standard helmet at TT speeds is maybe 12-18W.

At more typical road race speeds the theoretical advantage of a full TT lid drops to 7-10W.

An Evade would be below those last numbers (its not a full TT lid) AND under idealized wind tunnel conditions.

So you're looking at 5W under best conditions.

About enough to reverse the effect of pinning on a race number.
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/30/2014 10:42 AM
I was more making a point about helmet testing and how these types of tests don't account for real world use.

According to that test they extrapolated that one helmet was "faster" than the other during a five minute test of each helmet with the rider pedaling a fixed bike in a position that dare I say is probably unrideable by 95% of the cycling population. But yet these results will be put into a power point slide showing how huge a gap of five seconds is at 25mph.

Which brings us to why I think that Specialized ad is garbage. I know what that difference really looks like on a sheet of paper. Significant it is not.
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Oldfart

Posts:484

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03/30/2014 11:32 AM
All you guys saying helmets like the Air Attack are too hot. Have you tried one? I have one and can tell you that it is not hot. No more so than any hole filled helmet. One does not sweat because one wears a helmet. You sweat because you ride hard. Sweat management makes one helmet feel less hot. Loose the hair and you will feel less hot.
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/30/2014 11:48 AM
OF, it is not as if we have not worn different helmets over the years. The fact that Specialized sponsored riders were ditching their Evades for the climbing stages says it all.

And here is the thing, I am WAY more likely to be going slow up a hill in the sun than I am to be sprinting at 1000w wheel to wheel with someone. And that is going to inform my personal buying choice.

Now if I got seriously got into TTing would I get an aero helmet? I suppose so. But it would be far down on my list of "things to make Keith faster" in terms of performance.
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 01:52 PM
@ Ride on - the fact that you use that old, tired canard is proof that you do not understand the concept. No one is saying wearing an aero lid means you win automatically. What people are saying is that it will make you faster, or conversely, allow you to save energy across the course of the entire race.. It is not just about the final sprint.

@ OC - there are a multitude of studies out there that show similar numbers to what I posted. And for re fence, there are a whole bunch of issues with how the MIt study was conducted....although I agree 100% directionally with their findings. IOW, aero helmets are one of the best, and cheapest, ways to improve your CdA.

@ Keith - so because you posted a pic of a admittedly flawed test (that position is ridiculous), that means that all wind tunnel tests are similarly flawed? C'mon man....you're smarter than that. And again, the test you reference is not even applicable because it is testing two similar helmets to find our which is "faster" for that rider. The magnitude of difference between an aero lid and a road lid is a lot more than 5w.

It seems that you are also playing both sides of the coin in your arguments - you dismiss WT results, but then hold up a wind tunnel test as an example of how the differences are minute. And if you can show me some data where a rider's bodies movement somehow negates the benefits of an aero lid, that would be great. Again, it is a mutually exclusive concept. The helmet does not cause a rider to move their body. They will do that no matter which helmet they use.....and an aero lid is faster either way (or saves you watts).
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/30/2014 02:09 PM
CK - where are those multitude of studies - links please.

Google search only brings up the MIT study.

Unless you can provide me with some hard evidence on the 20W claim (data and study setup), or some written discussion about what exactly was wrong with the MIT study, 5W is the only estimate I'd be willing to hang my hat (helmet) on based on what one can extrapolate from MIT study.
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/30/2014 02:12 PM
CK ... That was meant to be funny. Guess it missed the point.

No one here is saying that if there was an advantage they would pass it up. What people are saying is they don't believe it gives an advantage. So saying why would you pass up free speed is sort of falling on deaf ears.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 02:18 PM
Yeah....all the scientific stuff is pretty hard to believe.

Let me flip the tables - show me the data that shows these helmets DON'T offer a significant advantage.

You guys must have power to spare or sumthin' if you can so willingly give up 10-20w.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/30/2014 02:32 PM
I promise, if you can show my ANY hard data that I can actually gain 20W, I'll be the first to run...ehhr bike to the LBS and get one. I am due for a new lid anyways. But I have a feeling that I'm gonna be doing a lot of rides in my non-aero lid before I finally get that evidence. So far I've only heard mantras and I am not a religious guy.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 02:48 PM
Go back to page 1 of this thread.....@ 0* a Specialized Evade helmet saves 20w over a Soecialized Prevail. I think it dropped to about 15w at 20*.

Please post a picture of the receipt. :
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Oldfart

Posts:484

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03/30/2014 03:01 PM
C'mon Keith. Since when are pros who we look to for tech advice? Pros used to ditch their helmets entirely when they were allowed to yet Giro test showed that heads were cooler with a helmet on because they made move across the scalp faster even at climbing speeds. Pro cyclists are sme of the most superstitious athletes with respect to equipment. How many riders pooh poohed indexing and integrated shifters and even clip less pedals when they first came. I'll trust my own feelings over some dumb athlete anyday.
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/30/2014 03:35 PM
There you go again, No I'm not willing to give up 10-20watts. What I am saying is I don't think a different lid is going to shave off 10-20watts. You have a better chance making this argument over on Slowtwitch than here.
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/30/2014 03:42 PM
Posted By Andy Eunson on 03/30/2014 03:01 PM
C'mon Keith. Since when are pros who we look to for tech advice?


You really just said that?
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 03/30/2014 01:52 PM
@ Keith - so because you posted a pic of a admittedly flawed test (that position is ridiculous), that means that all wind tunnel tests are similarly flawed? C'mon man....you're smarter than that. And again, the test you reference is not even applicable because it is testing two similar helmets to find our which is "faster" for that rider. The magnitude of difference between an aero lid and a road lid is a lot more than 5w.

It seems that you are also playing both sides of the coin in your arguments - you dismiss WT results, but then hold up a wind tunnel test as an example of how the differences are minute. And if you can show me some data where a rider's bodies movement somehow negates the benefits of an aero lid, that would be great. Again, it is a mutually exclusive concept. The helmet does not cause a rider to move their body. They will do that no matter which helmet they use.....and an aero lid is faster either way (or saves you watts).


Once again, I am not even talking about TT lids. That is not what this was originally about and I want to make sure we stay on topic. Like I said, I used it to point out how easy it is to make non-significant differences look like significant ones. In that TT example I posted a .001 coefficient improvement for 5 minutes is suddenly 5 seconds over 40k and the equivalent of someone finishing more than half a football field in front of you, which in bike racing land is cause for panic. Suddenly, an aero helmet is a necessity and the marketing man has you. The Specialized helmet Powerpoint slide is equally misleading as the differences in terms of drag coefficient are so minute that they are easily overcome by other more important aerodynamic factors.
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/30/2014 05:20 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 03/30/2014 02:48 PM
Go back to page 1 of this thread.....@ 0* a Specialized Evade helmet saves 20w over a Soecialized Prevail. I think it dropped to about 15w at 20*.

Please post a picture of the receipt. :

Ha - I was expecting exactly that response. So the Spec marketing material is realistically all you have to back up the 20W claim

Not what I asked for. I don't believe claimed fuel mileage for cars either.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 08:00 PM
@ OC:

"OK, show me some data"

*shown data*

"No, I don't like that data."

I can post umpteen white papers showing the aerodynamic advantage of aero helmets and you are just gonna say the same thing.

The data is there....I can't make you accept it.
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Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 08:04 PM
@ Ride on - see response to OC.

But I'll ask you guys again - where is the data showing that there is no advantage to aero lids? I can at least give you guys data supporting my position of an advantage. Only seems fair to have you guys provide data backing up your positions.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 08:08 PM
Posted By Keith Jackson on 03/30/2014 03:42 PM
Specialized helmet Powerpoint slide is equally misleading as the differences in terms of drag coefficient are so minute that they are easily overcome by other more important aerodynamic factors.


You are gonna have to back that claim up, Keith....please show me examples, backed up by data, where the aero advantages of an aero helmet are overcome by other aerodynamic factors.
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Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/30/2014 08:25 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 03/30/2014 08:00 PM
@ OC:

"OK, show me some data"

*shown data*

"No, I don't like that data."

I can post umpteen white papers showing the aerodynamic advantage of aero helmets and you are just gonna say the same thing.

The data is there....I can't make you accept it.

Give me those umpteen white paper then...if they are good then I will accept them. 

I gave you the MIT data and the inferences that can be made from it...5W, not 20W.

You said you did not like that data but gave no actual reason. Who is calling the kettle black?

The MIT study is independent peer-reviewed. The Specialized data is what? Come on


http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/40486/191803811.pdf

http://www.biketechreview.com/index.php/blog/551-specialized-evade-aero-helmet-claims

The data is there, I can't make you accept it.



Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/30/2014 08:30 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 03/30/2014 08:08 PM
Posted By Keith Jackson on 03/30/2014 03:42 PM
Specialized helmet Powerpoint slide is equally misleading as the differences in terms of drag coefficient are so minute that they are easily overcome by other more important aerodynamic factors.


You are gonna have to back that claim up, Keith....please show me examples, backed up by data, where the aero advantages of an aero helmet are overcome by other aerodynamic factors.

Actually, one of those guys working that damn MIT tunnel had this to say (they worked with Ivan Basso amongst others):

"How you put your race number on matters more than having an aero wheel; today, we glued on our numbers to get them to fit flatter. Then there's water bottle placement: On a round-tubed frame, having a bottle on your seat tube is more aerodynamic than not having one at all, and it's much more aero than putting it on the down tube. And wearing gloves in a time trial will slow you down more than using a nonaero front wheel."
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 08:40 PM
All those things are mutually exclusive of an aero helmet. Keith said that the advantages of an aero helmet can be "easily overcome" by other factors.

What factors overcome the advantages of an aero helmet?
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Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 08:55 PM
Sorry, I confused the MIT w/ the Harvard study from years ago...I get those brainiacs mixed up all the time.

So in a study from 2007, they concluded that the "best" helmet offered an advantage for a recreational rider of between 9 - 14w (yaw dependent). Now, leaving aside the fact that the aerodynamics of helmets have improved in the last 7 years, let's go with that. Again, you guys must have powers spare if you can afford to cough up over 10w to the competition.

But from their conclusion:

by wearing an aero helmet, a rider can save a considerable amount of power and can also substantially reduce their overall drag.


Isn't that what I have been saying? I think it is.....
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Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/30/2014 09:00 PM
Lots of things CK...these guys explain it just nicely

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.ca/2009/01/further-explorations-in-aeroness-what.html

Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 09:21 PM
No, sorry....they didn't test the "Jordan tongue" facial expression. Incomplete data.
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Keith Richards

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03/30/2014 09:34 PM
I have another problem with your "mutually exclusive" statement. Because they are not. When we do experiments at my job we use this term called an "aggregate" and we use to get a better picture of things. We talk of it in terms of risk, but the same thing applies here. You just cannot separate the various aspects of aerodynamics on an object they way you are. It paint an unrealistic picture. I will give you an example from cars and then one from cycling to make what I am saying more clear.

When aerodynamics started being taken seriously in NASCAR they suddenly had a problem with cars going airborne when spun as the same thing that kept them on the ground in the wind tunnel turned them into airfoils once the cars started spinning.

Just today in Ghent, I was watching as guys sat up and TURNED their head around while using these new aero helmets. At 25-30mph. The aerodynamic tails were sitting up like sails in the wind.

The irony is that it made me realize that at least Giro addressed the fact that a helmet on a cyclist is going to be subject to winds coming from different angles and that a TT type profile for a mass start helmet will end up causing as much trouble as they would fix aerodynamically.

But the thing still looks terribly hot on a long August day in the mountains.
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 09:46 PM
They are mutually exclusive because they are not caused by you wearing the helmet. If you are gonna tug in your shorts, you are gonna tug on your shorts. The aero helmet is still faster when you tug in your shorts.

As for those guys turning their heads, that is exactly why they have been designed the way that they have....but let's take the extreme example - and Evade (which has a small tail) turned 90* for a second or two. That doesn't "overcome" the aero gains the rider has been experiencing the whole day....even if they turn their head multiple times during the race. Every minute you are wearing an aero helmet, you are saving power. Those advantages are not negated by a moment's glance to the side to check on your competition.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:1202

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03/30/2014 10:23 PM
Am I the only one who finds it funny that while helmets may be the relative holy grail in cycling aerodynamics (I agree with that much), of course the powers that be first had to sell us those posh aero wheelsets and frames at much higher market value for considerable less effect (4x less at 10x price). Apparently the $ drive was greater than the innovation drive. It has been known for considerable time that the cyclist is a much greater drag than the bike

And it doesn't hurt to take a step back and realize that words like "substantial" and "considerable" or "significant" should be seen within the context of the limitations of improving cycling aerodynamics, which is unable to escape the T-Ford age.

T-ford age car: Cd = 0.7-0.9
Bike Racer: Cd = 0.88
Modern Car: Cd = 0.2-0.3
Time trialist: Cd = 0.7

And again, if I am to believe the MIT guys then our aerodynamics holy grail is about as important as glueing on your race number, ditching your gloves, and by all means shave.

OK, I extrapolated that last one

Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/30/2014 11:45 PM
Well, to be fair, until last year your only choices in helmets were a road helmet or a full-on TT lid (and really there weren't many viable TT lids until 2004). The idea of an aero road lid is very new. No one had thought of it before.

One additional thought re: riders looking around. Again, that is not caused by the type of helmet they are wearing. So you can't say that those actions negate the addy amid benefit of the helmet....unless you compare what they drag would be while wearing a standard road helmet. My guess (and it is admitedly just a guess) an aero road lid, fee men with a tail, is going to be more aerodynamic than a standard road lid when Travelling perpendicular to the wind, simply because you don't have vents to increase drag.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/31/2014 06:58 AM
It comes down to do you believe the numbers being presented or you don't. None of us have enough access to the data or testing to really know.

For me I tend to view data from a company that is trying to sell me something with a grain of salt. Not that they are out right making it up but that they are also not supplying me all the information. I understand they want to make a buck and to do that they have to present the data in a way that makes their product look good.

CK is on board with the data. I'm ok with that.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/31/2014 10:58 AM
More data to be dismissed ....Road Bike Action did a test of aero helmets (both road and TT versions). CdA numbers are below:



Note that the Evade is damn close to the CdA of some full aero lids. Rule of thumb for converting into time saved is .005 CdA=50gr drag=5 watts=.5sec/km. So, in this case the Evade would represent about a 40" time savings over a 40K TT, or 10w power savings.

Note - this data was for a single rider on a velodrome.
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Orange Crush

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03/31/2014 11:34 AM
10W is a lot closer to the evidence I presented than the 20W you claimed earlier. I consider this a small victory for science and reason
Cosmic Kid

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03/31/2014 12:09 PM
Meh....Plenty of tests still out there that show higher numbers....

And knowing how RBA has conducted tests in the past, I'm skeptical of their testing methods, but I'm more than willing to toss the data out there.

My own experience is more along the 20w number going from a Specialized Prevail to a Giro Selector. But the actual results will always be highly individual....but I have yet to see any tests that show either no, or a insignificant, gain in power.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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03/31/2014 12:29 PM
Well I would tell you that despite what you might think of RBA testing it is likely to be closer to real world than a lot of stuff being done for marketing purposes.

Also when you extrapolate to get to 10W, you are using a 40k TT as a basis. But the purpose of the Evade is for road racing. Longer distance and lower speed will make the wattage gain smaller. wattage gain ~v^2, remember?

So I am still skeptical of the 10W as being high. But that's just me.
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/31/2014 01:06 PM
Yes the 10W is full on your own riding into the wind. Any other type of riding will result in lower/different numbers. Even if you are on the front towing another ride stuck to your wheel will result in lower/different values.

Also as stated before the side to side motion of rider and frame will jack with these claims.

I can't imaginge how hard that is to measure widn drag to a 3 place decimal ( .005 ).
Ride On

Posts:441

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03/31/2014 01:09 PM
CK I'm surprised you haven't even touched on the sun glasses vs visor debate.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/31/2014 01:33 PM
Well, the "purpose" of the Evade is road racing / tris and even some TT's....it is a multi-use helmet. A "Jack of all Trades", if you will.

Clarification - I am not using 40K to get to 10w, I am extrapolating from 10w to get to the time savings in a 40K TT. The math from the CdA gets me the 10w.

And as I pointed out, the gains of an aero road helmet in a RR, while reduced due to racing tactics, are still very much present the WHOLE race. You are conserving energy every step of the way.....or pedal stroke.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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03/31/2014 01:49 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 03/31/2014 01:33 PM
Clarification - I am not using 40K to get to 10w, I am extrapolating from 10w to get to the time savings in a 40K TT. The math from the CdA gets me the 10w.


The math from the CdA involves an assumed velocity - there is no other way to get to the watts gained. So my argument stands. What is the velocity assumed? And Ride On makes a good point. If one repeats the experiment 10-30 times, what is the standard deviation on the CdA? It it in the first, second or third decimal? Lots of questions on these tests that remain to be answered. Would be fun to be part of the testing crew to determine what can and cannot be measured.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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03/31/2014 02:22 PM
IIRC, the velocity is based on 40kph.

re: Visor or no visor - no clear answer here, although it seems to lean towards "no visor", which seems counter-intuitive. For shorter events, I prefer the visor on my Selector, mostly because I have a better field of vision. For my Half-Ironman, I opted for a Rudy Wingspan helmet w/ glasses (which ironically may have been a slower helmet choice....was big on my head). For my IM this year, I am planning on a two-prong attack:

* Option 1: Vintage Bell Vortex w/ glasses.
* Option 2: If the Bell gets shut down by officials who think it is illegal (it's not), I'll go with my Selector, no visor and glasses.

The problem I have is that my fit on the Selector is VERY tight and presses on my ears. Dunno if I can do 5+ hours with it. I may have to ditch the ear flaps...we'll see. The question is then what that does to the aerodynamics of the lid.

My bigger issue is re: running. I have been running in compression socks this year because of all my injuries. Seems to be helping.....so do I do the whole race in them or try and wrestle them on in T2? Some say they are an aerodynamic plus, others say it is a negative. very individual.

Can't believe I am considering it, but there is an Aero Camp being put on my some guys from ST. I can get 2 hours of wind tunnel time for less than market price in June. It would allow me to make some better educated equipment selections.....but it is still gonna be pricey. Hoping to do some field testing first.....
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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03/31/2014 02:44 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 03/31/2014 02:22 PM
Can't believe I am considering it, but there is an Aero Camp being put on my some guys from ST.


Oh...we can TOTALLY believe it. lol!
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Ride On

Posts:441

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04/03/2014 05:28 PM
CK. I just picked up an LG Course on sale ( last years model ).

I expect +2mph on my next ride.
Cosmic Kid

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04/03/2014 06:18 PM
Supposed to be a great lid....let us know how it is!!
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

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04/03/2014 06:19 PM
Oh, but I think last year's model was only worth 1.25mph.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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04/03/2014 06:22 PM
You're riding with an LG beer fridge on your head? I'd expect -2MPH.
jacques_anquetil

Posts:220

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04/04/2014 09:03 AM
please. can we just stay on the topic at hand and one on which we can all agree: these newfangled aero helmets are stupid ugly.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1124

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04/04/2014 12:46 PM
The LG Course isn't....looks like normal lid, except for the rounded back.



And the Evade, in some of the color schemes isn't too bad.....god awful in black, though.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Ride On

Posts:441

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04/19/2014 08:20 PM
Lots and lots of photos for you CK to get your aero wiener all excited.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/shoes-and-helmets-of-the-cobbled-classics

SideBySide

Posts:179

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04/19/2014 09:31 PM
That's a nice looking helmet.
Cosmic Kid

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04/19/2014 10:08 PM
Teams reported to us that there's a simple reason why such helmets are taking over in the pro peloton: verifiable speed.


Huh......
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Dale

Posts:493

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04/19/2014 11:42 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 04/04/2014 12:46 PM
The LG Course isn't....looks like normal lid, except for the rounded back.



And the Evade, in some of the color schemes isn't too bad.....god awful in black, though.


Get those straps trimmed or tucked under… flapping like that, sheesh, negating the benefit of the areo lid.
And zip up the jersey 'ya might as well be wearing a parachute
Ride On

Posts:441

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04/20/2014 07:56 AM
You do realize that the riders and team managers are paid spokesman for the equipment manufactures don't you? Mario : This is the best bike I've ever ridden.
Cosmic Kid

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04/20/2014 09:34 AM
That ain't me, Dale......
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Hoshie

Posts:114

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04/22/2014 04:06 PM
I have that helmet (LG Course). I am so fast now, that I can't even keep up with myself. It's a good road helmet and it doesn't look hideous.

But, let's not kid ourselves, we all look ridiculous in cycling gear regardless of what Rapha videos try to prove.

I, of course, just remembered while typing this that no one in Rapha videos actually wear helmets because apparently brain injuries are much more attractive.


J
Keith Richards

Posts:739

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04/22/2014 04:16 PM
Posted By Hoshie S on 04/22/2014 04:06 PM
I, of course, just remembered while typing this that no one in Rapha videos actually wear helmets because apparently brain injuries are much more attractive.

J


I think it is even more simple than that. Rapha is all about looking good on a bike. There are ZERO great looking helmets out there. Certainly not up to Rapha's level of stylishness.

I looked into the manufacturing possibilities of getting a basic helmet modeled after the classic hairnet certified and to the marketplace. It is just not worth it for a small company. One person crashes wearing your helmet and sues and, just like that, your company is bankrupt from legal fees.
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.


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