meanwhile on the road disc brake front - VeloNation - Cycling Forums, Bicycle Forums, Community Forums

Posts:4499

03/31/2014 10:21 PM
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-decision-on-legalizing-road-disc-brakes-expected-in-six-months (I checked, posted March 31; not April 1)

6ix

Posts:485

04/01/2014 07:46 AM
I'm still not a fan but it looks like this is going to be pushed down our throats whether it's really worth the hassle or not. The road-specific disc calipers are starting to look a bit more svelte but still have a long way to go. Just look at them compared to a beautiful Dura-Ace caliper. Not even on the same playing field. They still look like they were from a mountain-bike and that's not good for a road bike. Aesthetics aside, going to thru-axle will help a lot in reducing pad rub. There really needs to be a way to open up the pads if they are rubbing while riding just like on calipers. The industry wants this to happen for a number of reasons. Obviously, it will help generate new bike sales but what isn't mentioned much is how the elimination of current quick-release wheels will greatly reduce legal liability issues.

Posts:537

04/01/2014 08:05 AM
On the pro side it's got a lot of negatives - More weight - Less Areo - More difficult wheel change The only thing it has going for it are on outliner days (steep decents and wet weather) 90% of the time it's a negative, 10% of the time it might be useful. Hardly seems like a good trade off

Posts:4209

04/01/2014 08:54 AM
If I was a pro, I would encourage all my competitors to ride 'em.....HUGE aero penalty. I still think there is a big safety issue with these brakes in the road....if you go down and a bike w/ discs lands on you (or you on it), you may end up with a rotor brand on your leg. Those rotors get really not.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Dale

Posts:1767

04/01/2014 09:13 AM
The fact that they can get blistering hot might be an advantage when you get cut open by the rotor and immediately get the gash cauterized.

Posts:2881

04/01/2014 09:20 AM
Now, now. Give it a chance. PS: What day is it today?

THE SKINNY

Posts:506

04/01/2014 09:34 AM
i don't know why it's such a big deal. it's not like it's a requirement, just an option. personally i wish they all road the same bike, like the old IROC car racing series.

How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives.

6ix

Posts:485

04/01/2014 11:00 AM
The big issue is that the entire peloton will need to make the change all at the same time. If not, there will be tons of accidents as riders will be braking at different rates. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it's not really smart to drag a disc brake down a long hill but you can do this with a rim brake (within reason, of course.) But you can brake really, really late into a corner when using discs so that could cause massive pileups if everyone isn't on the same equipment.

Posts:809

04/01/2014 12:58 PM
I'm holding out for drum brakes or maybe some sort of jake brake on my racing bike. I guess the jake brake is a fixie!

Oldfart

Posts:511

04/01/2014 01:18 PM
Posted By Evan Solida on 04/01/2014 11:00 AM The big issue is that the entire peloton will need to make the change all at the same time. If not, there will be tons of accidents as riders will be braking at different rates. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it's not really smart to drag a disc brake down a long hill but you can do this with a rim brake (within reason, of course.) But you can brake really, really late into a corner when using discs so that could cause massive pileups if everyone isn't on the same equipment. I don't know if dragging brakes will be an issue. I did a 40 minute decent on my mountain bike yesterday and was on the brakes most of the way. XT brakes, 180 front rotor and 160 rear. no finned pads but ice tech rotor. No fading. I am not convinced that mixed rim and disc peleton would see crashes. Might be but I don't think the difference in braking between rim and disc on the road in the dry is that much different. I'll know in a while if Avid ever gets out their new hydraulic brakes for the cross bike I ordered last fall.

Posts:2881

04/01/2014 01:27 PM
Avid hydros seem to be going away, either rebranded as SRAM or replaced. Given their terrible rep, this can be seen as a necessary move by SRAM.

Posts:4499

04/01/2014 01:40 PM
I don't think so much the issue is with mixed peleton riding with disc and road brakes from safety perspective. It sounds like the issue is around having a single (ISO) standard for these brakes so that when it comes to wheel changeout, the neutral support can actually help out. A single standard for something on a bike...imagine that. But obviously some manufacturers are much further ahead than others so if they are all to work towards that standard than formal allowance of discs in peleton would be some ways out.

Posts:537

04/01/2014 02:43 PM
I see a beating for the mechanics. Another bike to keep up with. It starts to rain , give me the disk brake bike. Mountain top finish , give me the rim brake bike. dude make up your freaking mind

Pin0Q0

Posts:229

04/01/2014 03:11 PM
I think they are being considered as carbon rims totally SUCK in the wet, it’ll be much safer for the racers. I would imagine they will use on the rear wheel during wet months and not for TT. It would be optional either way so no need to get your bibs in a twist. Just like anything else the technology will revolve and eventually it will be smaller lighter and better. I say bring it.

Posts:809

04/01/2014 03:29 PM
smaller, lighter, safer? maybe quieter? no the only people that want this are the bike manufs and they are the ones underwriting a fair portion of pro bike racing at the moment. I agree with RideOn.

Posts:4499

04/01/2014 03:52 PM
from reading the article it sounds to me that it would be an all or nothing transition. I.e. if they are going to do this, then the entire peleton would be required to ride discs conforming to a uniform standard. Maybe I am misreading.

Posts:537

04/26/2014 10:58 AM
I was thinking. What are the chances that disc brakes on road bikes lead to more serious injuries ? My thinking is with disc brakes in a panic stop, is the rider more likely to be thrown over the front in a flip than with rim brakes? Landing flat on your back in a bike flip hurts like a SOB. Disc brakes are suppose to make things safer in wet riding conditions. I get that. In dry conditions are riders going to grab to much front brake ? I know I know it's up to the rider to control what he/she does but disc brakes have made that "skill" level go up. Disc brake bikes will get marketed to riders with low skill level as being safer to tide. Will be interesting to see if some company gets sued because a rider flipped over the front of a bike with disc brakes. If you can sue a bike company over not closing your skewer I figure it's only a meter of time.

Oldfart

Posts:511

04/26/2014 11:35 AM
Well designed disc brakes are not grabby and modulate really well. I can see someone doing an endo if they are new to decent brakes if they had weak brakes before.

Posts:2881

04/26/2014 02:06 PM
agree w/OF. faceplants are LESS likely with better brakes. Disc brakes are just plain better in terms of braking performance. Whether the weight and aero penalties will be justified for road racing remains to be seen.

Posts:340

04/27/2014 01:09 PM
Posted By Ride On on 04/26/2014 10:58 AM I was thinking. What are the chances that disc brakes on road bikes lead to more serious injuries ? My thinking is with disc brakes in a panic stop, is the rider more likely to be thrown over the front in a flip than with rim brakes? Landing flat on your back in a bike flip hurts like a SOB. Disc brakes are suppose to make things safer in wet riding conditions. I get that. In dry conditions are riders going to grab to much front brake ? I know I know it's up to the rider to control what he/she does but disc brakes have made that "skill" level go up. Disc brake bikes will get marketed to riders with low skill level as being safer to tide. Will be interesting to see if some company gets sued because a rider flipped over the front of a bike with disc brakes. If you can sue a bike company over not closing your skewer I figure it's only a meter of time. plenty of rim brakes are powerful enough to flip you over the bars. My neighbour flipped over her bars with canto brakes on her first ride as an adult returning to cycling. She said she was surprised at how powerful the brakes were. In terms of ultimate stopping power many front brakes are as powerful as disks. In fact there is no need for more power only better modulation which is really what disks do reliably.

KootnaMoots

Posts:47

04/27/2014 01:25 PM
TDF, rider has a flat, rider removes wheel, Support shows up with wheel, in the panic rider or support bumps the brake lever moving the pads out, can't install wheel because the disk can't be wedged into the caliper, screw driver or whatever is in/on the support vehicle, finally get wheel installed but brake is dragging, pump brake lever and away we go. A 20 sec wheel change now becomes a minute plus with a really frustrated rider. Depending where in the race this occurs it could be critical. Don't ask me how I know

Oldfart

Posts:511

04/27/2014 01:48 PM
It takes more than bump to push the brakes. You need to squeeze the lever fully and usually more than once to make it really bad. But I could see it happening. I think this points to a different thing. Tires that won't flat so readily. Oh wait, we have that. Tubeless with a little sealant. Just not that light yet.

KootnaMoots

Posts:47

04/27/2014 01:56 PM
Don't agree...The hyds on my Giant Trance will come out with the wheel off quite easily. If the handle bars swing and bump your shoulder or whatever they come out enough where the disk will be really difficult without some prying. Brake lever moves pretty easy on my Trance. Koot

Posts:340

04/27/2014 03:29 PM
We go to bike changes and the wheel is changed at the car. Transferring bottle will be the hardest part to deal with.

KootnaMoots

Posts:47

04/27/2014 09:32 PM
That's OK if the team car is close but if it is stuck in the back or front of the peloton and all you have is the Mavic support m/c you have a different situation.

Posts:2881

04/28/2014 04:44 AM
Kootna has a point. And ISO disc spacing needs to be truly identical between brands, as it hasn't always been so.

Posts:340

04/29/2014 12:44 AM
Posted By Jerry Russell on 04/27/2014 09:32 PM That's OK if the team car is close but if it is stuck in the back or front of the peloton and all you have is the Mavic support m/c you have a different situation. In that case a slow wheel change is still faster. Moot.

Hoshie

Posts:134

04/29/2014 10:18 PM
You guys know that disk brakes stop better - yes? j

Posts:781

04/30/2014 03:05 PM
Yes, but keep in mind the final limiting factor in braking is not the brakes but the contact patch. Once you have the ability to lock up your wheels with one finger, what's the point of having more?

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

79pmooney

Posts:3180

04/30/2014 03:20 PM
Contact patch or simple physics. Like decelerate faster than a certain amount and you ARE going over the handlebars. And at that maximum deceleration, the rear brake is doing zero because there is no weight on the rear tire. (Fix gears give you instant information on the status of that rear tire.) Ben

Posts:537

04/30/2014 05:25 PM
Interesting read about disc brakes and pro teams http://www.bikeradar.com/us/gear/article/the-problem-with-disc-brakes-in-road-racing-is-40867/

Posts:340

05/01/2014 08:49 PM
Posted By Keith Jackson on 04/30/2014 03:05 PM Yes, but keep in mind the final limiting factor in braking is not the brakes but the contact patch. Once you have the ability to lock up your wheels with one finger, what's the point of having more? Disk brakes are not appreciably stronger than very good callipers. They all can lock a front wheel up. What disks allow is better modulation, predictability, fade resistance and work better in the wet than rim brakes. They can allow a skilled rider an advantage in late braking or threshold braking in many more conditions of use and regardless of rim material. They can give a person an advantage say on a switch back descent. No one is suggesting road bikes need more ultimate stopping power. Under many dry conditions cantilever brakes met most braking needs on MTBs. V Brakes were better but disk brakes are the only system that does braking duty in all MTB conditions. My rims needed replacing every 2 years. Brake blocks could go from new to I aint stopping in an hour of muddy riding. These things are not so common on the road as even after a wet winter I would kill only 1 set of brake pads. My nucleon wheels need new rims. $400.00 later I am thinking disks and pads are cheaper than this over the same period of time.

Posts:781

05/02/2014 11:11 AM
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/the-problem-with-disc-brakes-in-road-racing-is Interesting article on what the mechanics and pros think of road disc brakes at the elite level of the sport.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

Posts:809

05/02/2014 11:41 AM
Looks like folks in the industry have been reading the VN forum!

Hoshie

Posts:134

05/03/2014 01:43 PM
Well, to clarify, when I say stop better, it means a few things: 1) Appropriately strong; had lackluster experience with a few modern cantilevers which caused me to move to V brakes on my cross bike. 2) Less prone to fluctuation in changing conditions like rain, etc 3) Good modulation. Vs, for example, are very on / off when using a road style shifter. Discs I have tried seem better in that regard which I would enjoy on either a cross or road bike. Of course, we can all say that if you have enough power to lock up your brakes, you have enough. That is true in one sense, but it's a one dimensional way to think about the problem. I think with any new thing, there are considerations as the article suggests. It's a longer list than something like di2 for example. Everything you guys mentioned. We'll see if it makes it. For me, the advantages are not so large that it's a must have, but given what I want from my next bike, it's something I'd be interested in especially if it opens up the ability to run 28s or 30s on a still racy frame / fork combo. I can get that now with a few bikes, but I suspect if we move to discs en masse, we'll have more to choose from in road / cross type applications that fit the way I like to ride. There are some custom builders doing those types of bikes now, and I find it interesting as I consider my next bike purchase independent of what the pro racing community wind up doing. j

Posts:340

05/04/2014 01:33 PM
I might add easier to fit fenders too. Given the current stable, I cannot imagine upgrades in the next 10 years so the next bike will be a Tandem and it will have disk brakes and with my recent experience with my new MTB I want through axels too. My wife is in the market for a winter bike and maybe her bike will be disk braked. Seems like a good choice for wet weather bike.

Posts:537

05/04/2014 05:31 PM
Was just looking at one of those crotch rocket bikes, one of my daughters friends has one, and it has dual larger disc brakes on the front and a smaller single disc on the back.

vtguy

Posts:298

05/05/2014 11:34 AM
Love them on my MT bike and would seriously consider them for a new cross bike...but for my road bike, I just don't see the need. My Ultegra brakes work just fine.

Posts:781

05/05/2014 12:04 PM
The only time I might appreciate disc would be in a serious rain. I had to ride home in a downpour and I have to admit, the amount of time it takes to get standard calipers to start to grab can seem to be FOREVER when you are in traffic.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

Posts:4499

05/05/2014 12:11 PM
Everything seems to be pointing to it being a matter of when not if we'll see discs in pro peleton and the market in general. The main question seems to be how long it will take to come up with a uniform standard and how long it will take for manufacturers that don't have their act together to bring a road disc offering complying with that standard. Any takers as to how many years we're looking at? We can argue all day long about the pros and cons of discs but given that this seems to be a done deal we might as well look at a question that matters.

79pmooney

Posts:3180

05/05/2014 12:16 PM
My question on disc brakes for road racing at the pro level is this: Do the seconds gained on descents from superior braking offset the near guaranteed occasionally skewed results as a result of a slow wheel change to a key leader. Current wheel changes are about as fast and reliable as similar repair work in any racing sport with mechanical equipment. Also, do better brakes make things safer in the real world? Riders in large numbers approaching hairpins a lot faster because they now can? Given that they are competitive humans, is this a good idea? Of course they will say yes. So will fans wanting to see a spectacle. But should a responsible racing organization go there? Ben, a Luddite who knows there are boxes you can open but not close

THE SKINNY

Posts:506

05/05/2014 12:16 PM
the trek domane is going to be offered with disks. it can support some beefy tires so it will work for gravel.

How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives.

Posts:537

05/05/2014 05:57 PM
Interesting comment in the article I never thought of is what will it be like when the pro teams all convert but the continental teams haven't due to budget constraints ? Some guys are screaming into a turn and some aren't, what happens then

Posts:781

06/03/2014 10:07 AM
So there ya go.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

6ix

Posts:485

06/03/2014 10:51 AM
You know, I didn't think about continental and domestic racing. I was just thinking about how the UCI would need to demand ALL teams use discs rather than having a mix throughout the peloton. That would cause a lot of problems if some riders are able to dive-bomb hairpin descents while others have to scrape away speed leading into turns. The pro peloton is a very small group and is comparatively simple to manage. But if amateurs start showing up with discs while most still have rim brakes, that's really going to be bad.

79pmooney

Posts:3180

06/03/2014 12:56 PM
I just had this "Duh!" Of course we will go all disc for road racing. Only a matter of time. This is a capitalistic world we live in. By going disc, every bike out there owned by the teams at the high levels and individual racers at the lower amateur ranks will have to be replaced. Every one. That means how many new bike sales? And new brake set sales? Thousands? Times what, 3, 10, 100 for ther wannabees that have to have the same bike? And $$ to manufacturers, distributors and shops. Millions? It's going to happen. Money talks. Driving forces in this huge change? How about Giant, Specialized, Trek, Shimano and SRAM. Not saying I like it. In fact I wish this thought never happened. Ben

Posts:4209

06/03/2014 01:12 PM
ben, this gets brought up every time there is a new "innovation." STI, dual pivot brakes, 9 speed, 10 speed, suspension, disc brakes.....you name it. "IT's ALL MARKETING!! It is just being driven by the manufacturers so they can force us to buy new stuff." What I can tell you is that never once, in over 10 years of working in the bike biz, did I ever participate in a meeting where such strategies were theorized, strategized or even suggested. The only thing the product guys are doing is trying to find new ways to make cool stuff that people will want to buy. That's about it. Hell, I can pretty much guarantee that more time is spent on choosing colors than worrying about disc brakes for the road, or any other product specification.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:781

06/03/2014 01:33 PM
Posted By Evan Solida on 06/03/2014 10:51 AM You know, I didn't think about continental and domestic racing. I was just thinking about how the UCI would need to demand ALL teams use discs rather than having a mix throughout the peloton. That would cause a lot of problems if some riders are able to dive-bomb hairpin descents while others have to scrape away speed leading into turns. The pro peloton is a very small group and is comparatively simple to manage. But if amateurs start showing up with discs while most still have rim brakes, that's really going to be bad. I don't think it will make the huge difference you think. The limiting factor at the end of the day is the tiny contact patch that is a road bike tire. We have this discussion in car land all the time. If you upgrade your brakes and don't upgrade to a stickier tire, the differences are not going to be that huge in terms of raw braking. In fact in car racing circles, the big reason for brake upgrades is heat dissipation and the loss of braking power that comes from overheated brake components, not a drastic increase in braking power or shorter stopping distances. The car racing motto is, "if you can lock up your brakes with the setup you have, adding stopping power will not make any difference."

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

Posts:809

06/03/2014 03:01 PM
that you KR? How's the ride?

Posts:781

06/03/2014 03:04 PM
Aww....no man. Y'all know what kind of techno grouch I am. I could never own/ride such a thing. Too industrial for me.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

Posts:809

06/03/2014 04:26 PM
I didn't think so but thought I'd ask. That's the great thing about bikes, everyone's got their taste and flavor that suits them.

Posts:4209

06/03/2014 05:27 PM
Posted By Keith Jackson on 06/03/2014 01:33 PM Posted By Evan Solida on 06/03/2014 10:51 AM You know, I didn't think about continental and domestic racing. I was just thinking about how the UCI would need to demand ALL teams use discs rather than having a mix throughout the peloton. That would cause a lot of problems if some riders are able to dive-bomb hairpin descents while others have to scrape away speed leading into turns. The pro peloton is a very small group and is comparatively simple to manage. But if amateurs start showing up with discs while most still have rim brakes, that's really going to be bad. I don't think it will make the huge difference you think. The limiting factor at the end of the day is the tiny contact patch that is a road bike tire. We have this discussion in car land all the time. If you upgrade your brakes and don't upgrade to a stickier tire, the differences are not going to be that huge in terms of raw braking. In fact in car racing circles, the big reason for brake upgrades is heat dissipation and the loss of braking power that comes from overheated brake components, not a drastic increase in braking power or shorter stopping distances. The car racing motto is, "if you can lock up your brakes with the setup you have, adding stopping power will not make any difference." Agreed, but the advantage of disc brakes is not the power (people could lock up v-brakes easily before discs), it is 1) modulation and 2) improved performance on wheels with poor braking characteristics (i.e. carbon). Personally, I see a place for them in CX and gravel road / touring bikes. I have yet to be convinced of the applicability on the road. My hesitation is due to 1) safety (hot discs in a pile-up) and 2) aerodynamics. You are losing WAY more in aerodynamics than you are gaining in performance.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:2881

06/03/2014 07:46 PM
Right on CK! We forumites of good will but varied experience go round and round on this topic. Discs are way, way, way better for almost every mtb application, But what does that have to do with road riding? What we know for certain ( sorting with facts from the opinions): Discs are better in the rain, HAVE BETTER MODULATION, and are more powerful. Discs are way better for gravel road grinders in the mountains (I know from personal experience this is true and so do many others). Discs weigh more and can be more complicated in terms of maintenance and rapid wheel changes. Heat dissipation may be an issue for major alpine-like descents (think Stelvio, but without the snow to cool things off). The jury is still out out on this and it may be months or years before hydraulic discs are vetted for long high speed descents that require lots of braking. Hydraulics are better in almost every way but mechanicals have some advantages because of simplicity, less fear of fade, wider pad clearance, and idiot-proofness. The rest has been a lot of posing and opinions borne of ignorance, prejudice or wishful thinking. Lets see what Shimano, SRAM, et. al. actually put on the market and see how it works. Cars, motorcycles, scooters all use discs brakes. Sure, they weigh more and (mostly) generally go faster than bikes, but that performance may or may not ultimately extend to bicycles that has nothing to do with marketing, profits or similar. "I don't need no stinking brakes that work better than what I got" is fine for some, but retrogrouches be open minded as this unfolds. . . .

Posts:4499

06/03/2014 09:05 PM
Funny discussion on advantages; this is the least relevant part as to if and when we will see discs in peleton. If you scroll back to page 1, the pertinent talking points are uniformity of standards and ability of all pro team frame suppliers to offer discs. Discs will be introduced across the board, not peacemeal and to a single standard (ISO maybe). That is what discussion between UCI and stakeholders is about.

Posts:4499

06/03/2014 11:53 PM
2016 or 2017 is the estimate for their introduction in peleton. I guess I will hold off purchasing a new steed until then.

Posts:4209

06/04/2014 04:16 PM
I'd still like to see more investment / development of hydraulic calipers for road bikes ala the new SRAM Red hydraulics. For road bikes, I think these make WAY more sense than discs.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

CERV

Posts:151

06/04/2014 06:33 PM
I know some engineers designing this stuff, and heat dissipation is still the major issue. This is where you can't make any real comparison to your experience using MTB discs. On one hand, there will always be a push for road discs to be smaller and lighter than mtb disc, but on the other hand they need to dissipate a LOT more energy. Amount of heat dissipated = change in kinetic energy = 1/2mv^2. 82kg (bike+rider) on a road bike slowing from 50km/h to 40km/h = 2837J 85kg (bike+rider) on a mountain bike slowing from 30km/h to 20km/h = 1639J This sort of difference in magnitude of energy to dissipate is also what you would see drag braking a road bike down a typical road descent vs drag braking a mountain bike down a typical mtb descent. Road bikes travelling faster would have better cooling available from more wind, but in the interest of making it aero, you'd also want to design the frame/fork around the disc to move air smoothly around the disc assembly instead of over the rotor which would cause turbulence. All this must be accomplished on a smaller, lighter rotor than on your mtb.

Posts:537

06/04/2014 09:30 PM
Disc brakes for road bikes is a solution to bad design in the first place, carbon clincher wheels. people want carbon wheels but they don't want tubular tires , hence introduction of disc brakes. Bad design to start with attempting to be fixed