Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/14/2015 09:57 AM |
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"Disc brakes will never catch on for CX or the road. No major manufacturer will ever spec them." |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Yo Mike
Posts:338
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| 04/14/2015 11:28 AM |
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3 tentative questions for this tentative approval:
Are discs more aerodynamic?
Will this bring Andy Schleck out of retirement?
Won't a 'mixed peloton' of disc / rim brakes cause problems, or is that 'part of the plan'? |
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6ix
Posts:485
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| 04/14/2015 11:37 AM |
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Expanding on the mixed peloton concern, what about mixed local group rides and amateur crits? Newbie riders are squirrely as hell already. Can you imagine a scenario where you have some riders using discs and others on carbon hoops? Carnage, total carnage. Even more carnage than the latest Terminator: Genysis movie trailer.
Here is what industry leaders need to get figured out: a open-release lever at the brake hoods that increases the pad/rotor clearance. There isn't enough wiggle room with the systems currently being used. Even with thru-axle hubs there is a strong chance to have some rub. I can handle have a little rub on a mountain-bike but on a road bike? Oh hell no. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 04/14/2015 02:17 PM |
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| Agree about the brake rub issue, which is potential fatal flaw. I'm not an engineer so maybe I'm naive. Why isn't ISO ISO? |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/14/2015 06:32 PM |
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@ Yo Mike....
1) No
2) gawd no...don't even think that!!
3) IMO, there are already a ton of braking variables in any group / peloton....carbon vs aluminum, different pads, singe vs dual pivot, etc. people seem to manage OK. I don't really see a concern here. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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SideBySide
Posts:444
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| 04/15/2015 01:09 PM |
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| There are going to be some pi$$ed off riders if the wheel is harder to get on the bike in the heat of the moment. |
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THE SKINNY
Posts:506
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| 04/15/2015 01:34 PM |
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| just another way to sell more bikes. |
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| How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives. |
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vtguy
Posts:298
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| 04/15/2015 02:53 PM |
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| I love the disc brakes on my Mt. bike, and I'll probably get them the next time I buy a new cross bike...but on my road bike, my Shimano Ultegra's work just fine. I guess I agree with The Skinny. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/15/2015 04:09 PM |
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Posted By carl x on 04/15/2015 01:34 PM
just another way to sell more bikes.
Yeah, it really isn't. Bike suppliers are already selling road bikes (not CX, road) bikes with discs. The vast majority if road bikes sold never see competition and the overwhelming majority of consumers have no ideas who races what in bike races (mostly 'cuz they don't follow the sport).
Never once in my years in the bike biz did I ever sit in on a meeting whee the idea was to come up with ideas to develop bikes to hoodwink consumers into thinking they needed something new. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Ride On
Posts:537
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| 04/15/2015 04:15 PM |
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Someone riding a disc brake raod bike is going to grab to much brake in a panic and go flying over the front. It's going to be a huge mess.
Then they will introduce anti lock brakes to solve that problem. Solution / problem / solution / problem. |
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Ride On
Posts:537
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| 04/15/2015 06:53 PM |
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I think we've talked about this before, stoping distance is determined by tire to road friction not pad to rim friction.
People who claim that wet stoping distance is going be much better with disc brakes are ignoring that the friction of tire to raod is much reduced when the road is wet.
Cars introduced anti lock brakes because in a panic people stomp on the brakes and skid the car. No one would listen to their dad and pump the brakes.
I suspect the same will happen with bike disc brakes. In a panic people will grab as much brake as they can and skid , loose control and crash. Yes disc brakes have better modulation and could stop you sooner in a panic but even the most skilled rider will put them on full force in a panic.
If they kept data on these things I bet disc brakes would have zero impact on crashes and injuries. My guess would be they actually makes it worse since in a panic you are going to grab as much as you can. Will they make you faster ? Yes probably. You can brake later but again that won't make you any safer. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 04/15/2015 07:11 PM |
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| You are going offtrack in the very first sentence. Under normal conditions tire friction is the limiting factor. But under wet conditions brake pad to rim friction reduces to 1/10th of that during dry and becomes the limiting factor. It takes 20-30 bike wheel revolutions for this wet factor to be mitigated and for pad to rim friction to get closer to what is was under dry conditions. That initial period is where rim brakes lose out in wet and where you get that "no brake" feeling. |
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Ride On
Posts:537
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| 04/15/2015 08:39 PM |
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Rim brakes in the wet are safer.
My logic goes like this. Rim brakes in the wet keep you from locking up the wheel cause as you point out they just won't no matter how hard you apply the brakes. Sure stopping distance is far but the wheel doesn't lock up.
With disc brakes you will be able to lock up the wheel in the wet. A locked up skidding wheel in the wet is very hard to control.
Hence a rim brake is safer than a disc brake in the wet when/if apply the brakes hard. You will apply the brakes hard when you panic. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 04/15/2015 09:16 PM |
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I have a road bike with rim brakes and a commuter with discs, been riding in the pissing cold rain since Oct as I do every year, so reasonably good comparison.
I have no problem generally with rim brakes in wet but couple times each year get that no brakes, hazarsd up close moment that takes some quick action. Disc brakes you get 100% confident braking.
I have yet to lock up a disc in wet; modulation is excellent. Only times I locked them up have been on during frost days on black ice patches and the white striping on road which has lower friction when covered with frost.
Would I consider discs for road? Not until they are the norm and can't get around them. They look like a pig on a road bike, pad wear is horrendous when riding on wet gritty roads and I hate the zing zing sound that grit makes. But safe they are, that I am convinced off. |
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Ride On
Posts:537
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| 04/15/2015 09:19 PM |
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| You have experience, I only have conjecture, so I bow to your thinking. |
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Red Tornado
Posts:159
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| 04/15/2015 09:49 PM |
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| Our local club rides have a mixture of disc/rim brakes now, as I'm sure most clubs do. I personally have not witnessed any braking -related incidents (i.e. disc bike stopping way faster than a rim brake bike). For us non-pro club riders and local racers I don't believe we will notice much of anything on the road.
I believe the issues the pros would have would be rotor/pad clearance and wheel changes, specifically compatibility between wheel/rotor and caliper and also extra time to perform said wheel change. A third possibility is brake fade if there is prolonged high-speed braking.
The biggest issue for a guy like me is what do I do with my sweet rim brake wheels if I buy a disc frame? And the extra expense of disc wheels on top of the frameset. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 04/16/2015 02:56 PM |
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| OC and Red T have summed up the realities and the unknowns very well. |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 04/16/2015 04:08 PM |
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Oh, please... I head the same thing when brakes went from side pull to single pivot to dual pivot-- They're too powerful, people will rocket over the bars when they grab too much brake, yada, yada, yada.
The pros survived Campagnolo Deltas, they'll survive disc 
"Rim brakes in the wet are safer." The heck!?!
Not coming down Mt. Crumpet getting zero braking and facing a series of tight 180's.
Those on disc were able to descend faster with much more control than us saps on rim brakes.
Had I been on disc I could have moved up from 87th to as much as 75th
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/16/2015 04:33 PM |
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Mt. Crumpet? 'Zat you, Grinch?
Had I been on disc I could have moved up from 87th to as much as 75th
Disc brakes....improving mediocrity through technology. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 04/16/2015 06:28 PM |
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I'll take any advantage* I can get, and to prove I'll put my money where my mouth is I'm now rocking a new Focus Mares CX w/ Sram hydraulic disc with thru-axel. Totally digging the bike.
*Provided the advantage doesn't involve any actually training, I just want to buy performance
Mt. Crumpet is a Jingle Cross staple-- steep and nutty when it's raining or snowing |
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Ride On
Posts:537
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| 04/16/2015 09:31 PM |
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Dale
I think you might be misunderstanding me a little. Will disc brakes make you faster ? The answer seems to be yes. If you can wait longer before applying the brakes to get to the fastest safe speed to take a corner than you will be faster. That isn't the same thing as being safer. By your own statement you made it down in the wet ( ie you were safe ) but you weren't fast
To me safer is measured by stopping distance in a panic stop. You aren't modulating the brakes you are applying them full force. We all know that skidding the tire ( wheel rotation stop) is not going to produce the shortest stopping distance. This is why cars have anti lock brakes. Do I think a person can stop a bike faster with disc brakes. No I don't. They will lock up the wheel and skid in a panic. A computer could use the full advantage of the disc brake and stop you sooner. A human will botch it up and skid. On wet roads even more so.
I think OC is right. On your own a disc brake great. They give you better modulation.
All this made me think in 30 yrs of riding and all the crashes I've had (10 yo 15 ) none of them would have been avoided with better brakes so it's all kind of a mout point.
Yes disc brakes will make you faster but I still stand by the won't make you any safer |
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Ride On
Posts:537
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| 04/16/2015 09:33 PM |
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Posted By Ride On on 04/16/2015 09:31 PM
Dale
I think you might be misunderstanding me a little. Will disc brakes make you faster ? The answer seems to be yes. If you can wait longer before applying the brakes to get to the fastest safe speed to take a corner than you will be faster. That isn't the same thing as being safer. By your own statement you made it down in the wet ( ie you were safe ) but you weren't fast
To me safer is measured by stopping distance in a panic stop. You aren't modulating the brakes you are applying them full force. We all know that skidding the tire ( wheel rotation stop) is not going to produce the shortest stopping distance. This is why cars have anti lock brakes. Do I think a person can stop a bike faster with disc brakes. No I don't. They will lock up the wheel and skid in a panic. A computer could use the full advantage of the disc brake and stop you sooner. A human will botch it up and skid. On wet roads even more so.
I think OC is right. On your own a disc brake great. They give you better modulation.
All this made me think in 30 yrs of riding and all the crashes I've had (10 to 15 ) none of them would have been avoided with better brakes so it's all kind of a mout point.
Yes disc brakes will make you faster but I still stand by they won't make you any safer. In the wet you learn to apply rim brakes sooner , which makes you slower, but just as safe
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 04/17/2015 09:55 AM |
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Except is WAS safer on the descents-- rain/ snow rim brakes with carbon wheels caused several people to have such poor braking that they overcooked the corner and ran off course.
Several buddies made the switch to disc and extolled the benefits like a new convert to the point of being annoying, I chalked it up to the newness factor and once they made the switch what else could they say? I bought it, now I hate it?
Now I'm the annoying guy with disc brakes |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 04/17/2015 11:07 AM |
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| Aahhh, carbon wheels, now there's a definite problem. As long as I ride rim brakes I'll never own carbon wheels. |
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