new helmet
Last Post 08/30/2021 10:10 PM by Frederick Jones. 27 Replies.
Author Messages
smokey52

Posts:492

--
08/27/2021 10:47 PM
I realized that my helmet is ten-years old. I got it just after my crash wrecked my left side (I was all right.) and cracked my helmet. I like Bell. As I searched for a new lid, I found that the technology has changed. Is there really an advantage to MIPS? Any suggestions? I prefer mtn-bike over road-bike helmets since I like the visor. thanks all -smokey
79pmooney

Posts:3178

--
08/28/2021 04:12 AM
I'm coming up on seven years (I think) on my POS Trabek, MTB with visor and MIPS. It was the first highly visible (white) MIPS helmet I came across that fit. I'd been using Bells forever. (Influx for the past few.) This helmet weighs a real amount more, is radically more comfortable, better made, has held up much better. Granted it is a much more expensive helmet.

Only gripe- the chinstrap buckle doesn't hold adjustment. I sewed the straps at the best adjustment early on and haven't looked back. (The headband adjust is really good, And six years later, POC may have gotten to the chinstrap buckle.)
Cosmic Kid

Posts:4209

--
08/28/2021 11:02 AM
Yes, MIPS makes a difference. If you review the VA Tech testing results, the best helmets all have MIPS.

Can’t give you any tips on MTB helmets since I wear road helmets…but in general, I like Specialized helmets as they tend to fit my head better. Girl helmets tend to be rounded than Speicialozed.

I just got a Kask Utopia, and honestly, it is quite good. Air flow is arguably the best I have ever had in a helmet, despite being an aero road helmet.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
zootracer

Posts:833

--
08/28/2021 01:45 PM
Long time user of Bell Helmets. My LBS had a 40% off sale on Helmets. Only problem was the only sizes they had were in small or large (I wear medium). I drove over to another bike shop and tried on a Specialized Propero III MIPS. Very comfortable. Sticker shock ($140). Most comfortable helmet I have every worn. Very light, lots of vents. Buckle is on the side near left ear so it does not get crusted in sweat. I had previously ordered a Giro Agilis MIPS from Amazon. Fit was great, straps were narrow and short. Buckle was tiny, hard to open. Would have been near impossible when wearing winter gloves. I returned it. Best bet would be to visit an LBS with a large inventory of helmets and find one the fits the best. $140 is a lot to pay for a helmet. But consider it protects your head in case of a crash its worth every penny. I was in a bad crash years ago and was knocked unconscious. ER room Doctor wanted to see my helmet. No doubt saved me from a very serious head injury.
Dale

Posts:1767

--
08/28/2021 08:33 PM
I'm a big fan of MIPS. Also a proponent of replacing helmets sooner rather than later. I usually replace every 3 or 4 years.
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

--
08/28/2021 11:37 PM
MIPS seems like a real step forward, at least in theory.
The EPS foam that absorbs the hit is purported to have a shelf life and 5 years - this is bandied about in both bicycle and motorcycle lit. Of course it's not really black and white, going from good to not good in one day, more just losing goodness over time. And of course they want to sell us more helmets. In addition to the question of when does the clock start ticking (sale date or manufacture date, I can relay tales of hypocrisy), seems to me if you store your helmet in a cool dry place without ozone the EPS will keep its goodness far longer than other sorts of environs. Especially hot places like a car parked in the sun. I dislike the analogies of cheap helmets for cheap heads, but there is something to advice to keep that lid fresh to protect your brain.
Dale

Posts:1767

--
08/29/2021 07:15 AM
LSD, some motorcycle race classes require helmets less than five years from date of manufacture. The have a date code tag somewhere in or on the helmet.



The owner of a motorcycle dealership in central Nebraska several years ago showed me a helmet he sliced in half with a bandsaw. The EPS was so hard I couldn’t compress it with my thumb. The helmet was less than five years old. I have no idea the what the conditions were like where the helmet was stored but it convinced me to replace my helmets sooner rather than later.
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

--
08/29/2021 01:11 PM
The "5 year rule" is widely promulgated in motorcycle land. Some helmets are 18 months old when sold. When does the clock start? Storage conditions surely matter. As you point out track days use manufacture date, reasonable.
As for the EPS stiffness, moto helmets are intended to manage much higher forces than bicycle helmets. Safety standards are an interesting, deep rabbit hole to go down (you may stop reading now). The early landmark standard in the US was Snell approved, and was adopted early by Bell, which earned Bell a lot of loyalty. basically way better than no standard as a lot of crap was being sold back then.

But early Snell was optimized to protect the skull, not the brain - that was the ideal many years ago. As medical understanding evolved, Snell has revised their standards, but too slowly for several reasons, not least of which is the litigious environment here in the US.
Meanwhile, the EU to their credit focused on protecting the brain from the get go, and with as much science as possible. Snell will match CE eventually, but DOT standards are still a bit behind. So if I have the option of choosing a Snell or CE helmet, I'll choose CE. Thanks to the gray market, they can be purchased directly by US consumers - and often are a lot cheaper than the heavier "legal" DOT version, as they don't have to put a lot of money aside for the US tort system.

The CE approved helmets may have softer EPS, but I suspect heftier than bicycle helmets.
Dale

Posts:1767

--
08/29/2021 02:46 PM
LSD, we're going waaaay down the rabbit hole now

SNELL, DOT, and CE use variations of the same tests:
1) Plumbob to the helmet to test for penetration
2) Helmet drop to measure G-spike
3) Chin strap retention test

None of the three standards test rotational mitigation. When I was selling moto helmets for one of the major players in the industry one of the things I pointed out was the improbability of crashing in the same manner as the helmet was tested for. Nobody crashes straight down, there's always some forward momentum unless you tip over at a stoplight.

Unfortunately nobody has come up with a testing protocol that can be agreed upon so consumers are left to try and figure out marketing hype from actual science.

There's a lot of discussion in the helmet industry about how to reduce rotational trauma. MIPS, Wavecell, Koroyd, multi-density/ multi-material layers (Bell's Flex system), and a few others that may have escaped me.

FYI, the DOT test is self reported... guess how many DOT helmets actually pass the test? Less than 60%
https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2020/02/05/2020-dot-certified-helmet-performance-test-data-update-failure-rate-increases/

Both SNELL and CE helmet are tested and certified by 3rd party labs. I agree that SNELL has lagged behind some of the CE standards but they aren't without fault either. The testing for SNELL is random; the plumbob can strike anywhere. With CE the points of impact are specific so a helmet manufacturer can "build to the test" by paying up extra material in this areas and use less in non-tested sections making the helmet lighter.

Moto has used multi density EPS on some helmets for years, I'm just now seeing that trickle down to bicycle.

You're spot on as to the degradation of EPS being environmentally accelerated. A helmet stored in the back seat of a car when it's 95* outside will deteriorate a lot faster than one inside an air-conditioned house.


longslowdistance

Posts:2881

--
08/29/2021 05:18 PM
In case you haven't seen this semi independent moto helmet test site, you might find it interesting
https://sharp.dft.gov.uk/
zootracer

Posts:833

--
08/30/2021 09:20 AM
Anyone around during the late 70's when we rode with a cycling cap turned around backwards ala "Breaking Away" style? Steel bikes, no clipless pedals, full length frame pumps, no computers, wool jerseys, small water bottles, one one cage mount...those were the days my friends....
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

--
08/30/2021 09:35 AM
Never wore a cap, it just prevents ventilation (have abundant hair), but did have a sweatband a la Fignon. Bought my first helmet in 2003 (was stopped by a police officer last Friday for not wearing my helmet on way to work lol, old ingrained habits die slowly). Transition from toeclips to clipless probably early 90s. Still have a somewhat bend (from heat in car presumably) full size frame pump so that transition was quite recent. Last bike purchase was steel. Wool jerseys suck. Glad transition to Lycra happened right when I started biking. Lots of gas station rewater stops with single cage. Always just used their tap in front of building. These days one buys plastic bottles of water.
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

--
08/30/2021 09:41 AM
On LSD and Dales testing discussion, seeing that lab testing is non ideal in reproducing real world impact conditions, how much retrospective analysis is being done on actual crashes?
I could see this being challenging too in terms of determination of what happened. Never mind that majority of cyclists wears there helmet incorrectly (proper setup is an order of magnitude harder than a seatbelt) which limits utility. A fair amount of retrospective analysis being done in hockey I believe but don’t know details.

Interesting thread. Been reading along keenly. I believe my current helmet is a MIPS but mostly bought it cause it’s visible bright yellow.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:4209

--
08/30/2021 09:42 AM
All of us on this thread...



AND GET OFF MY DAMN LAWN, TOO!!
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
zootracer

Posts:833

--
08/30/2021 10:07 AM
You mean you guys don't yell at clouds?
79pmooney

Posts:3178

--
08/30/2021 10:37 AM
1977, my steel Fuji Pro, sewups (that bike never saw anything else), DT cage plus strapped on cage on seat tube (TA steel of course!), Zephal HP on TT. Deep, no play Pavarin cleats, Binda Normal straps.

Didn't ever have a wool jersey until years later (money and communal apartment life wash times). Wore the (way pre-good) synthetic Jones Cyclewear jerseys, custom through our club. I still have my favorite, the one I raced that year. (I can still wear it and no, it hasn't stretched).

The dorky Bell Helmet. 1976 I club raced, got coaching from vets, watched some open races. Knew if I joined the cat 3-4 open scene, I'd be behind crashes and being behind them meant being in them. Made a quiet vow to myself that if I raced the next year, I was buying that goofy Bell. Next winter I spent an evening with a woman I knew since high school. It was pop the question, get a yes and be a dad or keep my mouth shut, not be a poor father and adding kids to the planet and not spending my life with this wonderful woman. I didn't ask. Next day I knew I was racing some more, now open, and went out and bought the helmet that was going to save my life 8 months later. (The bike that broke was my only "good" bike when I didn't ask. Had we married I would have been riding it without helmet when it broke. I would not have not have benefited from the several huge breaks I got. The instant 911 call, riding with a neurosurgical ER aide, getting a CAT scan several hours later-1977!, and having eaten for a 120 mile ride. The only nutrition I got over the next few days was through IV and they were purposely dehydrating me to lower the risk of water on the brain. I left the ICU 15 pounds under race weight. Now, had I asked, I'd have had a nurse for a wife who might have been given a life sentence to care for a vegetable.)

Those four little unspoken words. And if I'd stuck to steel forks,
79pmooney

Posts:3178

--
08/30/2021 10:49 AM
Posted By ed custer on 08/30/2021 10:07 AM
You mean you guys don't yell at clouds?

My joke re: clouds from 6 winters spent in Ann Arbor.  When asked via long distance phone calls about the weather I'd just say "only one cloud in the sky".  Might or might not tell them it ran east-west from Chicago to Buffalo and north-south from mid-Ohio to Lake Superior.  Thanksgiving to March.  Since then I've flown over that cloud many times.

Senior year January, we set record.  The sun only came out 3 times.  We didn't notice.
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

--
08/30/2021 11:03 AM
Had a look at my helmet as I grabbed my bike: Specialized S-Works Prevail II Mips "cooler heads prevail". Lightweight, very well vented, comfortable. As good as they come in case you wanted to try something other than Bell.

It also has one of those "crash detection" features that can call your significant other through interaction with phone. I never activated it. Figured that with two Covid vaccines in my body I am being tracked enough as it is. My wife doesn't need to know all the instances where the helmet drops off the bar counter and makes prank calls.
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

--
08/30/2021 11:15 AM
That's funny!

Moto helmet manufacturers inspect crashed helmets - surely they learn something from the real world use.
To entice crash victims to send in the used helmet, they offer a steep discount on a replacement and free shipping all around.
Dale

Posts:1767

--
08/30/2021 11:18 AM
OC, one of the moto apparel companies I work with has a crash replacement policy so they can get back wrecked gear. It's been invaluable for seeing how gear really gets used. They have over 100 sets of gear on display in their product development room. One I saw was on a guy who went down at 100mph+ They've made revisions to the placement of armor and "super fabrics" that are placed in high impact areas based on real life.

People not properly wearing a helmet prompted me to make this video last year for my grandkids.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBWPhSWT71c
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

--
08/30/2021 11:46 AM
Speaking of old guy stuff, just learned about this:

https://www.amazon.com/Jersey-Project-Bill-Humphreys/dp/0578116103
(you can get it cheaper elsewhere)

Looks like a fun trip in the wayback machine for guys like Ben and me who were racing in the late 70s. Bill Humphries, part of the Raleigh team that dominated USA road cycling back then put this together. He got into cycling late - basically a hippy who had to pedal because his drivers license was suspended. After a successful racing career, he went on to a successful coaching career in the Junior ranks.
6ix

Posts:485

--
08/30/2021 02:39 PM
Whew, this has me re-thinking my helmet choices!! I have different helmets that match different kits. Think 3 or 4 Aeons, couple Mojito, high-end Bontrager models (names?) and an Atmos II. As you can imagine, some of them are over 5 years old in absolute age but not in use. They are always housed inside and I can't wear all of them at the same time, so actually time spent out in the beating sun is pretty limited.

That being said, none of them have MIPS. I tried an earlier one on the Synthe and it just made the helmet larger than it really needed to be. It also pulls hair badly.

I have a hard time with the marketing of MIPS. I can see the logic but I find it to be like holding a pillow in front of a train. Sure, it will lessen some of the impact, if only for a millisecond, but that train is still going to kill ya. MIPS just doesn't provide the brain with an additional distance to decelerate enough to avoid impact against the skull. Think of it like trying to catch an egg. You can't just grab it but rather you have to swing your arms along with it's travel in order to make it slow down a bit. I don't see a way of getting around that with helmets. It's still moving at a fast rate and slowing down very fast regardless of whether you have MIPS.

Finally, the test results always seem wonky too. How could you ever possibly reproduce two identical crashes with and without MIPS?

To that end, it's a marketers dream because even if the product fails to deliver, who would ever really know?
Dale

Posts:1767

--
08/30/2021 03:08 PM
MIPS works. I've seen the data and saw a testing protocol that was set up to replicate an angular impact. The swung the headform with the helmet so it would strike a glancing blow on a simulated asphalt surface. The G-spike was lower with the MIPS helmet than the identical helmet without MIPS

MIPS doesn't necessarily lessen the impact per se, it provides a slip plane to prevent the brain from that snap action that tears the neurons.

Another good technology is Koroyd. Some moto helmets use both Koroyd and MIPS. Belts and suspenders, I suppose. Koroyd has the added benefit of better ventilation.

Good video of MIPS testing. A little different that the one I observed but same principle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCd_MpWANzk
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

--
08/30/2021 03:53 PM
Dale's post above made be wonder how much the G-spike reduction actually is and whether it was significant relative to what is needed to matter. Quick search led to this (shakes head but not to the degree to cause trauma):

"Currently MIPS nor Giro, nor any other brand is willing to open themselves up to the type of litigation that could arise from ‘safest’ claims. MIPS has a huge comparison chart showing where every helmet they have tested rates in its ability to reduce the devastating effects of rotational impacts. MIPS is keeping it private. We can’t blame them."

"The bottom line is there is simply no way to tell if your chosen helmet is safer than any other. Despite much of a helmets safety performance being eminently quantifiable, the legal downside to making ‘safe’ claims is just too great."

https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/mips-the-reality-behind-making-helmets-safer/

edit: thank you lawyers. also, why is it possible to publish car safety ratings but not helmet safety ratings?
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

--
08/30/2021 04:24 PM
So what I got from that article:

1. The data exists to distinguish crappy helmets from good helmets but the data cannot be published.
2. If you put MIPs technology in a crappy helmet and it improves safety performance by 10% compared to without MIPS, the helmet will get a shiny MIPS sticker but it is presumably still a crappy helmet whereas there may be (much) better non-MIPS helmets out there. However we'll never know.

Two major WTFs.
79pmooney

Posts:3178

--
08/30/2021 07:24 PM
Dale, my Lambert fork hung on a wall of a bike shop for years so anyone showing up with Lambert could see why they should fork out cash for the change. (I was riding to meet the shop owner. Bike went to him, then his shop not far from my home. Shop manager asked if they could keep the fork. Yeah, I sure as hell don't want it!)
smokey52

Posts:492

--
08/30/2021 09:48 PM
I have online access to Consumer Reports through our local library. It has an August 2021 update helmets: their testing process, ratings, and recommendations. I'm not sure which print edition it is in.
For the Giro Register MIPS, they state: "This CR Best Buy is one of the best helmets CR has ever tested." I think this is my choice.
When I crashed ten years ago, Bell had a replacement policy. As I recall, it was a discount on a new helmet if you returned the damaged one.
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

--
08/30/2021 10:10 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 08/30/2021 10:10 PM
Alas I have lost my image posting mojo. The CR article likes helmets with mips. CR has laid a lot of eggs., but they are a valid independent source of info. Some of these helmets are less than $70. I see this as another step away from skull protection and towards brain protection. These "flimsier" helmets may result in more catastrophic injuries, but fewer significant injuries overall. No free lunch, better to sit in a lounge chair rather the take a chance getting your head hurt. Or not.


---
Active Forums 4.1
NOT LICENSED FOR PRODUCTION USE
www.activemodules.com