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Tilford on Sagan
Last Post 09/13/2013 05:22 PM by Elle S.. 27 Replies.
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Inferno7

Posts:220

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09/10/2013 09:23 AM
http://stevetilford.com/2013/09/10/peter-sagan/
Oldfart

Posts:438

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09/10/2013 09:36 AM
Yeah pretty much. I saw that final TOA stage. Pretty amazing the way he turned like that. Weight over the outside like a mountain biker.
Entheo

Posts:317

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09/10/2013 09:48 AM
i think it was a stage in the giro, a few years ago... final corner, maybe uphill if memory serves... sagan just railed it, balance was perfect, like a classically trained dancer, shot thru the other riders like a hot knife thru butter. knew then that i was watching someone special.
Master50

Posts:217

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09/10/2013 02:08 PM
Driving the medical car on the stage in Black Diamond I was just amazed at how he just goes wherever he likes. Riding out in the wind beside the team car and joking with the Director. I just never looks hard for him. He just seems to be part of the bike or it is part of him. He gets bottles while his team grinds away on the front to protect his energy. He is a very special rider and it will be a while until we see it's depth. Right now he is just having funs it seems and I wonder how he will transform the sport, he is that good.
Keith Richards

Posts:701

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09/10/2013 02:12 PM
He is a bike RIDER. He knows how to ride a bike. ANY bike.

Not a lot of guys racing on the road are really adept at bike handling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLDMhKHlEIA

How many guys in the pro ranks can do this? Him and.....
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Orange Crush

Posts:1149

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09/10/2013 02:43 PM
That final corner in Calgary was something to behold, it rendered the sprint a formality and giving him enough time for the lassoo tribute...roped that one in real easy.
bobswire

Posts:290

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09/10/2013 03:22 PM
You're all familiar with the term "a mans man", Sagan is "a cyclists cyclist". Seriously who can he be compared to?
ElleSeven

Posts:48

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09/10/2013 03:25 PM
It's not just the angle of the bike; it's that his upper body is essentially upright, his COM remaining almost directly above the contact patch. This is known in the trade as "angulation," a term that Sean Yeats bummed from GS skiing when he and a few other riders noticed how skiers "corner" and negotiate slalom gates, with a sharp angle between the upper and lower physique, like the hands on a clock at 4 o'clock or 8 o'clock. It is by far not only the fastest way to go round a bend, because speed actually assists the physics, but the safest by far as well, since the body mass presses straight down as against aiding centrifugal action. You need virtually no traction, either, which everyone else in that photo is depending on entirely to keep their bikes from sliding outward. Had that surface been damp, only one rider would have got through upright: Sagan.
Oldfart

Posts:438

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09/10/2013 03:28 PM
Down stairs on a road bike is no big deal. Up them on the other hand takes skill and comfort. A friend of mine can ride like that. He's a former flatland BMX rider. He can ride a mountain bike really fast up and down and has been the provincial cross champion and I think he was second or third at the national cross champs, in masters 30 plus. Sagan is like that in terms of comfort on the bike like it is simply an extension of himself. He's not a sprinter like a Cavendish or a climber like a Pantani. More of an exceptional all rounder.
ChinookPass

Posts:406

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09/10/2013 04:06 PM
I hope he can win De Ronde before Cance and Boonen retire. Stages of the Tours of Colorado and Alberta? meh.
ElleSeven

Posts:48

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09/10/2013 04:16 PM
Sorry, Yates, not Yeats. Beg your pardon. Not the guy who said, "Things fall apart," but the one who said, "Stuff breaks."
Keith Richards

Posts:701

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09/10/2013 05:37 PM
There is a phrase I used to hear back before watt meters and all...back when you were taught about riding a bike well as opposed to just producing max watts, "lean the bike, not the body."

Sagan got that memo.
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
Oldfart

Posts:438

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09/10/2013 05:55 PM
Oh you still need traction L7. What he did allows the bike to lean more and thus turn more sharply. Some of the other riders are doing to old school head over the inside which I was taught a long long time ago. Bikes on dirt or pavement to seem to turn better when you lean the bike and not the body. With modern skis that actually hold a carve you can really feel the g forces. Same on a bike and you need grip to do that. I think some riders try and copy motoGP riders who lean off the inside but that is because the GP bikes are already as leaned over as they can be so the riders have to do that so as not to touch down and slide out.
Orange Crush

Posts:1149

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09/10/2013 05:59 PM
Posted By Jim Laudolff on 09/10/2013 04:06 PM
I hope he can win De Ronde before Cance and Boonen retire. Stages of the Tours of Colorado and Alberta? meh.


Not necessarily de Ronde, but he'll net a big one next year. He's ready now.
ElleSeven

Posts:48

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09/10/2013 06:32 PM
Old Fart, can we agree on very little traction by comparison? In any case I'm referring to the traction sometimes loosely called "adhesion" that is used to resist side-load and centrifugal energy, not the element of traction that allows the tire to rotate without slipping in its direction of travel. Angulation drives so much orthogonal down-force into the contact patch that what little mass lies to the inside of the contact patch [principally the bike frame, one leg, and one arm] barely acts on the tires at all. It's a bit like a circus clown balancing on top of a ball: the trick is to keep the ball directly between your COM and the ball's contact point on the ground. Also, as the grouch -- Sean's one-time teammate who taught me this technique -- has pointed out here in the past, comparisons with motorcycle cornering methods are problematic. Same physics, and therefore some dynamics in common, yet the completely flip-flopped relationship between rider and vehicle mass will place the motorcyclist's unified COM very close to the ground, whereas with a bicycle that unified COM will be at or even above the saddle.

There are additional gains for angulation, too, such as the way in which the wheels track in near-linear alignment rather than in a de-stabilizing tangent; no active deceleration is needed while the bike is passing through the apex; and so on. But the main pay-off is that it requires surprisingly little athletic ability. (Sagan is, despite his immense natural athletic prowess, not using natural ability here; he's using a learned skill.) Your grandpa can be taught to do this. And watching gramps drop the local Ones on a descent can be among the funnier delights of the training week!
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