Orange Crush
Posts:4499
 |
| 05/27/2014 10:19 AM |
|
You either neutralize the descent or you don't; but whatever don't keep going back and forth. Now maybe this race gets decided by different teams working off different info. I am sure there will be lots of verbal fireworks today from Lefevre. |
|
|
|
|
Spud
Posts:525
|
| 05/27/2014 11:21 AM |
|
| Totally agree OC. Friggin joke! |
|
|
|
|
stronz
Posts:447
|
| 05/27/2014 12:17 PM |
|
| I dont think the organizers ever spread the work to neutralize the descent. It was a tweet somewhere tho. Still Uran could have reeled in Quintana if he had the chops. Gap was 1:30 at base of final climb. Quality prevailed. Great stage. |
|
|
|
|
Keith Richards
Posts:781
|
| 05/27/2014 12:22 PM |
|
| High quality, free for all racing. So much better than the TdF. |
|
| -----
It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
|
|
Orange Crush
Posts:4499
|
| 05/27/2014 12:47 PM |
|
The racing was awesome; and Quintana put in a really good show. Scrappy performance too by Ryder and good to see Kelderman take a dig in the end. Definitely way scrappier racing than the TdF.
But you have to wonder who was thinking what on that descent. Not a good day for the organization.
The original Tweet from the race’s feed was deleted and a corrected one was posted: “Wrong communication: no neutralization for the descent from the Passo dello Stelvio. Sorry for the wrong information. #giro” |
|
|
|
|
Spud
Posts:525
|
| 05/27/2014 01:04 PM |
|
| OPQS will get the maglia rosa back |
|
|
|
|
stronz
Posts:447
|
| 05/27/2014 01:44 PM |
|
| when exactly Spud? Zoncolon? Uphill TT? Sprint stage? Next year? Not seeing it |
|
|
|
|
Spud
Posts:525
|
| 05/27/2014 02:09 PM |
|
| You know it's more wishfull thinking than reality. I wouldn't count anything out in this race though, would you? |
|
|
|
|
stronz
Posts:447
|
| 05/27/2014 02:13 PM |
|
| could be == you are right its been a great race without anyone controlling it. I cant help thinking a healthy Purito would have been dominant on these final stages |
|
|
|
|
Keith Richards
Posts:781
|
| 05/27/2014 02:21 PM |
|
I have to give OPQS credit. I didn't think they had any support at all for Uran. I am surprised they have done as good as they have.
|
|
| -----
It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
|
|
Orange Crush
Posts:4499
|
| 05/27/2014 02:29 PM |
|
I don't see Uran taking pink back. Somewhat ironically, the minute and a half to two minutes that Quintana got before the confusion was eliminated by organization is what separates the two. We could have had a hard fight for overall over next stages but now the deal may have been sealed prematurely.
And yeah, Lefevere is foaming at the mouth; the lawyer word has been used.
http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/Giro/140527_Lefevere_kwaad |
|
|
|
|
Spud
Posts:525
|
| 05/27/2014 02:40 PM |
|
Keith,now this is what I call support for Uran. This was posted by someone on the OPQS page.
 |
|
|
|
|
Spud
Posts:525
|
| 05/27/2014 02:51 PM |
|
| OC, Quintana lost 2:41 to Uran in the last TT. This alleged miscommunication today, may just piss Uran off enough to do it again. |
|
|
|
|
Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
|
| 05/27/2014 02:55 PM |
|
Next TT suits Quintana where the first one did not. He won't lost that kind of time.
Props to him, though...I had written him off for the race and had actually begun consider whether he was just the next in a long-line of Columbian climbers who never live up to the hype. |
|
| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
|
|
|
stronz
Posts:447
|
| 05/27/2014 03:16 PM |
|
have you seen the profile of the next "TT"?
Not really taylor made for Duran Duran
http://www.steephill.tv/players/profile/?race=giro-d-italia&stage=19&year=2014&src=http://www.steephill.tv/2014/giro-d-italia/resources/profile-19.jpg |
|
|
|
|
Orange Crush
Posts:4499
|
| 05/27/2014 03:21 PM |
|
Yeah, its a 25km climbing TT, a beast.
I rode Grappa in 2012; the guy that killed me it the Dolomiti in 2010; I put 15 minutes into him and he spent some time puking before ordering a beer in the Rifugio up top. Its that kind of TT. |
|
|
|
|
Keith Richards
Posts:781
|
| 05/27/2014 04:40 PM |
|
| I have a gripe with the Directors bitching about the "neutralized" descent. I learned when I was a cat 4 that a neutral descent means, "GET YOUR ASS TO THE FRONT" because people will try and get away/position themselves to attack as soon as they are allowed. |
|
| -----
It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
|
|
Orange Crush
Posts:4499
|
| 05/27/2014 10:09 PM |
|
| That's a perfectly good lesson if you're descending the local moles heap on a hot mid-summer night Keith :-) |
|
|
|
|
79pmooney
Posts:3180
|
| 05/28/2014 12:17 AM |
|
Seems to me the instructions were pretty simple: don't pass the motorcycle with the red flag. Sounds like guys stopped who never saw that bike. Huh? And Quintana? "Till I see that bike, I'm racing." Yeah!
OC, that same thinking Keith talk about plays out every year at the Classics. The winners aren't saying "I'd better ease up and drift back because the dangerous stretch is coming".
Ben |
|
|
|
|
Keith Richards
Posts:781
|
| 05/28/2014 09:26 AM |
|
| Exactly Ben. Neutralized doesn't mean "slow down" by any means, IMHO. It certainly doesn't mean lose your position in the pack. |
|
| -----
It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
|
|
ChinookPass
Posts:809
|
| 05/28/2014 11:18 AM |
|
| In the cat 4's, are you referring to the old attack in the feedzone trick? Never did it, but followed some that turned out to be quite lucrative. |
|
|
|
|
Orange Crush
Posts:4499
|
| 05/28/2014 11:45 AM |
|
Uh Ben - Quintana passed that motor bike with red flag ...after he got word those ahead of him were doing same. Can't blame him, in top sport you bend the rules to the extent you can get away with. Its up to the officiating to enforce the rules. Fail # 1.
In classics it race on, everyone knows its race on, crystal clear; that comparison doesn't stack up. This is a case were the officiating reversed their own decision under pressure, creating chaos and confusion. Rule #1 of strong officiating, you make a decision, you stick with it. Fail # 2.
If the officials had stuck with their original decision to neutralize and actually enforce it, those stopping to gear up would have caught up to motorbike assuming their original position, no problem. |
|
|
|
|
Dale
Posts:1767
|
| 05/28/2014 11:45 AM |
|
Posted By Keith Jackson on 05/28/2014 09:26 AM
Exactly Ben. Neutralized doesn't mean "slow down" by any means, IMHO. It certainly doesn't mean lose your position in the pack.
Yellow flag in auto racing means you get a free pass to close the gap to the car in front of you. |
|
|
|
|
Keith Richards
Posts:781
|
| 05/28/2014 11:52 AM |
|
Yeah, believe me I think that they way these situations are handled is far from ideal. But knowing how things work...maintain your position especially if you are in contention or with contenders.
I did a race that started with a two mile descent. The event started in a driving rain so the neutralized the descent. So the race starts...and it is a fight for the front to be in position at the bottom for the first climb. I ended up at the back. Race over. Learned my lesson that day. |
|
| -----
It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
|
|
Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
|
| 05/28/2014 12:42 PM |
|
OC, have you seen any pics of Quintana (or verified accounts) in front of the rd flag? Seen a few with him and Rolland clearly behind the red flag, but not in front (yet).
If he went in reorient of he he flag, then it is a different story. If he stated behind the flag, but the flag was still moving at a decent clip, well....too bad for everyone else.
 |
|
| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
|
|
|
Orange Crush
Posts:4499
|
| 05/28/2014 12:50 PM |
|
"There are images taken from the RAI broadcast that show Movistar riders slipping past a motorcycle with a red flag still in the vertical position. What’s unclear was if there were other motorcycles ahead of them at that moment."
http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/05/news/giro-peloton-remains-divided-in-aftermath-of-stelvio-controversy_329884
Of course the organizers now claim that those flags were just meant to indicate dangerous turns, and the UCI claims they were never consulted on the decision and should have been the ones making the call. Weak sauce upon weak sauce on the officiating and organization end. |
|
|
|
|
stronz
Posts:447
|
| 05/28/2014 01:32 PM |
|
| I like Ryder's question. Please tell me what a neutralized descent is? So everyone who busted their butts up the Stelvio in the snow and crested in the first group gets that effort erased and its gruppo compatto on the way down? Not fair -- the concept of a neutralized descent in the middle of a stage is inherently unsound. Couldnt have been fair anyway you slice it. |
|
|
|
|
stronz
Posts:447
|
| 05/28/2014 02:29 PM |
|
| On second thought -- here's what they should have done: Stopped the stage atop the Stelvio. Should have said ok this descent might just be lethal. Still want an uphill finish. Let em duke it out up the Stelvio and then call it a day. No descent in the freezing rain - case closed. Should have made that decision 30-40k from the stelvio which they could have done. |
|
|
|
|
Master50
Posts:340
|
| 05/28/2014 10:09 PM |
|
What does a red flag raised by a race marshal mean? what if it is raised by a Commissaire?
I think 1 means warning and the other means don't pass. Context matters. Why does the flag in that picture show up better than the tail lights? What does a rider see from the ground with snow in his face and likely a cycling cap too?
In the end I think the results are as they should be
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Crush
Posts:4499
|
| 05/28/2014 10:27 PM |
|
Posted By Mike Shea on 05/28/2014 10:09 PM
In the end I think the results are as they should be
I agree but that is not the point of the thread.
How come such chaos was allowed to ensue? How come organizers can just make up rules that are nowhere to be found in any UCI race book? How come this "neutralization" was communicated on race radio without proper consultation with commisionaires? What were the UCI commissaires doing when all this happened? In the end, this farce is a major black eye for Giro and UCI. We urgently need a tweet from Cookson  |
|
|
|
|
Pin0Q0
Posts:229
|
| 05/29/2014 06:33 AM |
|
Red flag means "caution" that's it, does not mean you can't pass, plus the peloton stopped at the top to have a coffee break and put warm clothes on that's why the gap was huge. There has been no confirmation that the race radio told directors to stop racing, tweet yes but that's not official. C'mmon you are supposed to be a pro. Good for Quintana, let the young lad have his moment and if he wins it then he deserves it.
CAT 3 didn't have a feed zone considering most race lengths were from 30 to 40 miles. It was hard enough just grabbing water bottles w/o rubbing wheel. Had my most crashes on CAT4. Lot of mountain bike riders making the switch to road. |
|
|
|
|
Master50
Posts:340
|
| 05/29/2014 08:48 PM |
|
Posted By Orange Crush on 05/28/2014 10:27 PM
Posted By Mike Shea on 05/28/2014 10:09 PM
In the end I think the results are as they should be
I agree but that is not the point of the thread.
How come such chaos was allowed to ensue? How come organizers can just make up rules that are nowhere to be found in any UCI race book? How come this "neutralization" was communicated on race radio without proper consultation with commisionaires? What were the UCI commissaires doing when all this happened? In the end, this farce is a major black eye for Giro and UCI. We urgently need a tweet from Cookson
Part of the post fiasco problem is the information is coming from too many people. I just read a statement from the organizer the neutralization was intended for the top 6 or 7 switchbacks for reasons of poor visibility. That is about 1600 meters After that no red flags flew.
The Commissaires never set any of this in motion and if they had put the red flag out believe me they have whistles and very loud voices with big cars to tell a rider to stay behind the car. Like most fiascos I am sure some discussion about neutralizations will occur but every case has its own challenges. In principle we use the Railroad crossing rules to order the process but that almost always involves a race stoppage to get control of the message and make the restart procedure clear.
I can't recall any neutralization on the decent of a race. If I ran out on the road on a decent and waived a red flag I would expect to see them slow down out of self preservation but stop? not unless the road was blocked. IE I am talking about a warning as that is what the red flag means to a rider. When I was officiating I have a small paddle with a red and a green side. No one passes me when it is out except the riders. I actually have to tell them I mean them since to them I am controlling the cars and certainly not them... The riders know when a commissaire puts out the red flag it means stop but not to them. they have to be told the red flag is for them like we do at the neutral start. Of course they were told the start has a neutral zone and the red flag is for them. other wise it is for the cars. |
|
|
|
|
79pmooney
Posts:3180
|
| 05/30/2014 11:49 AM |
|
Well, at least Quintana is making one thing clear. He is out to win this race and it looks like he will do it with enough margin that this descent will not be the difference. Uran or Aru could prove me wrong tomorrow, Quintana is louing mighty strong.
Ultimately, isn't Quintana doing exactly what we want a grand tour winner to do? Ride the front and aggressively?
Ben |
|
|
|
|
Oldfart
Posts:511
|
| 05/31/2014 11:59 AM |
|
| The fans today were a toon show. I think some one in a WC jersey will be lucky to get off the mountain without a beat down. |
|
|
|
|
Orange Crush
Posts:4499
|
| 05/31/2014 12:59 PM |
|
Yeah that was bad.
The racing this Giro has been excellent; but the organization at key moments was crap. Zero crowd control on some of the steepest sections. Quintana got away lucky with someone almost giving him a bear hug. |
|
|
|
|
longslowdistance
Posts:2881
|
| 05/31/2014 07:31 PM |
|
Chiming in to agree about the bedlam on the Zoloncon. Nutjobs roaming free with no Carabinieri in sight until the last km. An embarrassment for the organizers, they must realize they are an international laughing stock, hopefully they will learn from this. As for the racing, it was an outstanding Grand Tour and hopefully the problems will be rectified and what we will remember is the racing.
Chapeau Cadel, for representing us old guys so well. And Quintana - if they tailor more big races for him, just how many can he win? |
|
|
|
|