longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 03/10/2016 07:42 PM |
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We've had some fun chewing the fat about disc brakes in elite road racing. They are here. Some teams are ready to adopt, some are waiting for a few more iterations.
I'm not aware of superior braking being a potential factor in the spring classics, but I'm no expert. Windy weather is likely, a potential disadvantage of discs.
C'mon, chew some fat with me!
Will the Early Adopters gain an advantage, or the opposite, or will it be a wash?
Not talking about the Tour or Giro with their massive descents, just the spring classics.
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 03/10/2016 08:35 PM |
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My prediction? The big teams will stay away. Spring classics? Think wheel changes. Why risk Tom Boonen's race with a poor neutral services wheel change? So if anyone does gain an advantage, it will be someone on a lesser team and probably not a race breaker. More likely, a team leader who is not a player will have his chances of a field finish ruined by a poor wheel change and few will notice.
Ben
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 03/10/2016 08:56 PM |
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Lampre, a big team, is on board:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lampre-merida-to-switch-to-disc-brakes-for-cobbled-classics/
But others are not.
My cynical side sees this all as a diversion from doping. Whatever.
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ChinookPass
Posts:809
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| 03/11/2016 10:40 AM |
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| I don't think the classics have ever been won due to braking. They are heavy and not in a benign way. The weight affects the handling and feel of the bike. Wheel changes are a big deal in the cobbled classics. It's more of a marketing thing than a performance thing so I think teams that use them are being pressured by their sponsors. |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 03/11/2016 11:23 AM |
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Posted By ChinookPass . on 03/11/2016 10:40 AM
I think teams that use them are being pressured by their sponsors.
Yup, I agree completely |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 03/11/2016 12:23 PM |
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yeah, I don't know how much pressure they are really getting. Sure there is likely some, but I don't think it is anywhere close to ultimatum-style pressure.
Best example I can give would be aero road frames....there is a real, significant wattage savings to riding one vs. a round-tube road frame. But, for the most part, riders continue to climb aboard their standard road frames and sponsors really aren't pressuring them to use the aero frames.
It will be the same for disc brakes, IMO...sure the sponsors will want teams to use the latest / greatest, but at the end of the day, the teams and riders will make the choice that suits them best. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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ChinookPass
Posts:809
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| 03/11/2016 01:34 PM |
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ok, maybe not pressured, but perhaps incentivised. Could be good PR for team and equipment sponsors alike. We've already mentioned Lampre more than we have the entire season so far.
I know one of the original motivations for discs was that the combined weight of lighter rim + disc brake was supposed to be less or at least the rotational resistance would be less (less weight at the edge), but the calipers themselves still seem very heavy. I notice it when switching back and forth between my disc and rim bikes. Rocking the disc bike back and forth feels sluggish. Not totally apples-apples due to fenders, tires etc, but holding the calipers in my hand before installing them, I thought, I am really going to bolt these heavy things onto this bike?
Just checked this week and the shimano r685 was still heavier than the trp hy/rd (which is what I have). They don't feel like lightweight bike parts. It looks like the r685 on the etixx bike.
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6ix
Posts:485
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| 03/11/2016 04:00 PM |
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Well, I'll say it again and am sure many others on this forum will agree, but I think road discs are an answer to a problem that shouldn't have ever existed in the first place. Namely, carbon-fiber braking surfaces. Now we are faced with having to switch over to a system created for use on mountain-bikes where the features certainly provide real benefits over rim brakes whether they are aluminum, ceramic or carbon-fiber. But whatever...doesn't matter now. We all just need to accept the inevitable.
Besides slowing down wheel changes a bit and not being able to make adjustments while riding (pad rub is a very real issue even with thru-axle,) the professionals have every reason to be concerned about being sliced or severely burned by the rotors during crashes.
So I sit here looking like a retrogrouch but I can nearly say with 100% certainty that my next road bike will have discs. Oh well, far worse things in the world...until one of those pads start rubbing while out on a long ride!! Brings back the dreaded Look cleat squeek of years gone by. |
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Yo Mike
Posts:338
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| 03/13/2016 10:11 AM |
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| Well of course the teams are being - um - incentivized - by Manufacturers to use the new equipment. Sponsors know that The Masses will clamor for the same $tuff. 'Twas ever thus. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 03/13/2016 03:33 PM |
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Having some past insight directly into this issue, I can tell you that rivers are loathe to ride anything that they perceive as negatively impacting their efforts....see above example of aero road frames.
Here is the reality...pro teams are behind consumer demand on road discs. Simple fact. Demand for road discs is high and growing and manufacturers are responding. We can debate their real world efficacy, but consumers are looking for and buying them.
There is no great sinister cabal of manufacturers looking to force road discs (or any technology) on the masses. There are just a bunch of guys looking to make cool bikes that people want. |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 03/13/2016 04:28 PM |
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Members (and former members) of the Illuminati and not going to acknowledge it's existence. 
Pro bike and civilian bikes used to be the same thing back in the days of quill stems and 52/42 gearing. With the advent of carbon bikes, slammed stems and 54/39 gearing mere mortals could't ride them... at least not for long.
When Spez and a few others came with bikes with taller head tubes and geometry that people without pro-yoga flexibility could ride for hours they had a winner, and coupled with pros riding them at P-R gave the bikes the necessary cred for wanna be races to accept them. I think for the most part the era of civilians wanting bikes identically set up as the pros is about over.
I've got a 'pro' bike with, however, compact gearing and a non-slammed stem. Even with those I'm a lot more comfortable on my Ti bike with a lower bb and shorter tt. The pro bike is faster for a two hour road race but for longer than that and I'm a hurting buckaroo. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 03/13/2016 07:30 PM |
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This winter I did a LOT more hill training than previous years. On the basis of the experience (alu rims) my next winter road bike will have discs. Its been an exceptional wet winter.
For summer bike, ultegra calipers on high end alu rims are just fine.
The tools you need depend on the conditions. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 03/13/2016 08:58 PM |
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Echo here.
I switched to mtb discs many years ago while riding frequently in Pisgah NF in NC. Rains a lot there in the summer and the rim sidewalls disappeared quickly in that granite slurry. My ah hah! moment came when a local (using rim brakes) explained that replacing rims every year was just normal there.
Thank you BB7s. What a revelation.
Where is PA biker to tell us useful info and that we are idiots at the same time?
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 04/13/2016 01:28 PM |
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Well, it's happened: a rider was seriously injured by a rotor:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ventoso-blasts-the-use-of-disc-brakes-in-the-peloton/
I expect a few " told-you-so" posts to follow, and they will be well justified.
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ChinookPass
Posts:809
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| 04/13/2016 03:53 PM |
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| sounds like the bike Ventoso hit was stopped and had avoided the crash ahead of it... |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/13/2016 03:55 PM |
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Well, looks like that may be the end fo discs in the peloton...at least for now.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/uci-suspends-use-disc-brakes-professional-racing-220931 |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 04/13/2016 06:08 PM |
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| I logged in just for this conversation. |
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| -----
It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 04/13/2016 06:55 PM |
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CP, that is too clever!
Just to play devil's advocate, how certain is it that the rotor was the culprit? |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/13/2016 08:47 PM |
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Something isn't lining up with Ventoso's story. He says he never went down and that the injury was sustained when he came into close contact with the bike next to him.
Leaving aside the thought of how he could get that close without bumping the other rider or bike, the injury is on his LEFT leg. How the hell does THAT happen? |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 04/13/2016 08:50 PM |
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| Who knows in what position the guy he hit was in but that is one nasty gash. I haven't heard the details of the second flesh wound from a rotor in the other incident Ventoso reported. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/13/2016 10:08 PM |
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| OK, Seeing all the pics helped....I guess I can see a scenario where this happens now. Rider in front skids / falls of slightly, bike pointing off to the left and leaning down towards Ventoso as he approaches (disc side facing the ground). Ventoso, skids / stops but veering to the right, so his left leg is sliding towards a disc which is now angled up at him...voila, it catches the side if his calf next to his shin and lifts the flap of skin up. |
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stronz
Posts:447
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| 04/14/2016 07:26 AM |
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I am very glad they acted quickly. Interesting to hear some of the otherriders chime in too - Ryder says he was always against them - I guess the riders need to be careful about what they say with respect to sponsors tho.
I was at lbs last weekend and I would say 75% of the road bikes on display have discs in this shop. So there is a asignificant investment that the manufacturers have made and they are clearly pushing this tech out to the public. I wonder how this UCI decision will affect sales - prob not too much. I have never seen the need for discs on the road (but I still dont see the need/benefit of electronic group sets either) - now I understand that being in a highly charged pro peleton is different from riding as I do which is mostly solo or with one or two others. Still the "right now" stopping power and modulation of discs in mtb riding that makes so much sense just doesnt seem needed on the road. I never need that kind of stopping power and am very satisfied with the modulation with my campy brakes and carbon rims. Lastly - every disc equipped set up I have seen is heavier than the same rim brake equipped bike I have seen - and its rotational mass too. So - I say a big meh - didnt care when they were here and dont care if they go bye bye. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 04/14/2016 08:25 AM |
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Sure you need that stopping power barreling down a 10 percent grade to a 4 way stop in pooring rain in midst of winter.
This doesn't affect my decision that next winter road bike will have discs (for safetey reasons)or that on summer bike I have no need for them.
Risk of getting cut on your own discs is close to nill, its a peleton issue.
Interestingly the Belgian kid that supposedly also got cut on disc at PR hasn't piped up. |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 04/14/2016 09:07 AM |
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One word (three actually) Cat. Five. Crit.
What in the heck is going to happen when, not if, there is a massive Cat 4 or 5... or for that matter 3's, pile up and 75 percent of the field is on disc?
It's one thing for the UCI to rethink this but the horses have left the barn as far as USAC is concerned and every knucklehead in the field thinks he can win the field sprint or corner like an F-1 car.
It's going to be a Veg-O-Matic(r) out there and I have zero interest in being the carrot. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 04/14/2016 09:48 AM |
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My engineer car buddies and I were discussing this and shrugged our shoulders, "so why not just put a radius on the outside edge of the rotor instead of leaving the raw 90 deg CNC angle.
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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stronz
Posts:447
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| 04/14/2016 10:10 AM |
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| Keith it would help thats for sure. be llike a butter knife instead of a steak knife
point being its still a knife |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 04/14/2016 10:12 AM |
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| Next, wheels with spokes will be banned. Fingers have been caught in spokes and injured. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/14/2016 10:59 AM |
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Posted By Orange Crush on 04/14/2016 08:25 AM
Sure you need that stopping power barreling down a 10 percent grade to a 4 way stop in pooring rain in midst of winter.
This doesn't affect my decision that next winter road bike will have discs (for safetey reasons)or that on summer bike I have no need for them.
Risk of getting cut on your own discs is close to nill, its a peleton issue.
Interestingly the Belgian kid that supposedly also got cut on disc at PR hasn't piped up.
The incident with Maes has now been pretty much debunked....there were no riders with discs involved in his crash.
"peleton"? Really? I expect better of you, OC. |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 04/14/2016 11:23 AM |
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Posted By Keith Jackson on 04/14/2016 09:48 AM
My engineer car buddies and I were discussing this and shrugged our shoulders, "so why not just put a radius on the outside edge of the rotor instead of leaving the raw 90 deg CNC angle.
Wondered the same thing. Silly to have sharp edges when it's not functional.
Some boat stuff I see is idiotic-- they whack off a 0.090" piece of aluminum and don't deburr the edges. An attorney will have a field day when the builder gets a summons over a sliced up leg. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 04/14/2016 11:50 AM |
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| I'm thinking it was bladed spokes myself. More talks with the engineer crew. The rotor just doesn't make sense. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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ChinookPass
Posts:809
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| 04/14/2016 11:51 AM |
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When it comes to racing bikes on the road, discs are still a solution looking for a problem. It seems like they've mostly figured out the problems with braking and carbon rims for racing.
I see a huge difference between the danger of getting sliced by a disc and getting skewered by a broken spoke. The spoke has to break for it to be dangerous (adjusting your wheel while rolling is another matter), the disc could always be dangerous just by being present. It sure didn't take long for there to be a very visual case of the danger.
My only question is why haven't there been any visible incidents from amateur racing where discs have been in play for a few years?
In any case, lining up for PR has got to feel like a crapshoot. Odds of coming home with broken bones seem much higher than any other race except maybe the first week of the Tour. |
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stronz
Posts:447
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| 04/14/2016 12:18 PM |
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just for grins - go to the cyclingnews page where the article about ventoso is fresh - the discussion is pretty fun. Some good old internet ugliness Brit style
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ventoso-blasts-the-use-of-disc-brakes-in-the-peloton/ |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 04/14/2016 01:41 PM |
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And the plot thickens... or in this case perhaps the clot thickens
http://cycling-today.com/lampre-merida-manager-not-convinced-ventosos-injury-was-caused-by-disc-brake/ |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/14/2016 02:29 PM |
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Well, it is not completely intuitive as to how it could ahve happened....as noted, the injury is on his left leg and discs are mounted on the elft side of a bike, so how does that happen?
But if start with the appearance of the would (triangular in shape, pointing down) and lay out two bikes with their left sides facing each other (so reversed from each other) and the angle the bikes over slightly, you can see how a disc could easily have caused that injury.
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 04/14/2016 02:57 PM |
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Cosmic, it sounds like Ventosa basically ran up Rier A's butt, putting his wheel just to the right of A's rear wheel and probably slamming his HBs on A's butt and putting A's bike between his legs. Then, when Ventosa stops abruptly, his probably already unclipped left foot would keep going forward like the skate of a forward just sat on his can by a defenseman. (And neither Venotosa or that forward would even notice a clean sharp blade slicing his shin while he is having his wind knocked hard!)
Ben |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/14/2016 03:36 PM |
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BUt if it happened that way, the wound would have been a thin slicing wound. In order for the wound to be triangular in nature like that (and have come from a disc), the disc would have to be perpendicular to ventoso's leg and coming in at an angle.
As it penetrated deeper, it also becomes wider...hence the triangular "flap". |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 04/14/2016 06:35 PM |
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| I would expect a laceration, not a scalpel clean cut. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 04/14/2016 07:16 PM |
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| LSD....take plate and put it flat against your calf. Now angle it slightly so the bottom of the plate is away from your leg. Imagine that is the disc rotor and think about it moving into the calf from that angle....you would get exactly the wound Ventoso suffered. A triangular flap that got deeper and wider as the disc went further into his leg. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 04/14/2016 10:47 PM |
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No argument here. I haven't reviewed the pics of his injury, for some reason not keen to gawk. What you describe is a lac, so that fits. The lay press used terms that I misinterpreted as other than a laceration.
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 04/15/2016 05:40 PM |
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I don't care for all the speculation whether or not it was a disc...its just that...speculation.
But the bottom line is an experiment was killed on basis of one data point. That is absolute fail.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/04/news/commentary-disc-brakes-cyclings-leadership-vacuum_402551 |
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ChinookPass
Posts:809
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| 04/15/2016 06:09 PM |
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| We need some crash testing of discs with dummies, simulated peloton, brick walls, slo-mo cameras, etc. Of course that might reveal a lot more problems than anyone is prepared to deal with. |
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Master50
Posts:340
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| 04/15/2016 07:08 PM |
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Posted By Dale Dale on 04/13/2016 08:50 PM
Who knows in what position the guy he hit was in but that is one nasty gash. I haven't heard the details of the second flesh wound from a rotor in the other incident Ventoso reported.
Sorry to disagree. I first read this when you posted it and it really bothered me that it was his Left Leg. Sorry the pictures in the first link of this thread are showing his RIGHT leg. It all makes much better sense now. |
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ChinookPass
Posts:809
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| 04/19/2016 03:18 PM |
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ok, bananas are safe from discs.
https://youtu.be/JbEt74b9nCU
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Gonzo Cyclist
Posts:568
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| 04/20/2016 10:04 AM |
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I did not really buy into how all of the pros were saying how these were soooo dangerous, but this kind of proves it. And one incident was all it took for everyone to go nuts.
I like Keith's idea, or I even thought of a lightweight shroud over the discThis will not affect sales by nay means, the benefits are huge for the average/serious cyclist, racerboy will not buy one, because he has to race what the pros are on in his full team replica kit.
All of this over the dangers of discs, but, is anybody in the UCI doing anything about motos? Discs have not killed anybody in a race |
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