79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 07/11/2017 02:54 PM |
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The unwritten rule that you don't attack and even wit when the yellow jersey (or another elite rider - sometimes) has a flat or mechanical.
http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/commentary/the-tour-has-been-yellow-fleeced-by-unwritten-rules_443430
I can see flats. Flats happen. But even then, sturdier tires get fewer flats. Waiting for someone who chose to ride lighter rubber?
But mechanicals, that one bothers me on two counts. 1) it is the job of the mechanic and the suppliers to provide TdF winning equipment. If they do not do this, should the rest of the peloton and especially those high on the GC pay? 2) not slowing for mechanicals would have a beneficial effect far beyond pro racing. Manufacturers would have to change their priorities. Lighter, more gears, the whiz you just have to have would take a back seat to more prosaic gear that failed less often. (And coaching would stress the importance of riding within the gear. Funny, we all did that 40 years ago. If you threw a chain.l no one was slowing. (Eddie Merckx didn't miss a beat when Fuentes had his shifting issues in the '71 Giro (The movie "Stars and Bottle Carriers").
It gratifies me that the rider who had a real mechanical that wasn't his or his mechanic's error won Sunday. (Uran had his RD kicked by Tony Martin when he crashed with Porte. Rode the last 23 km on an 11. He did get a rolling "fix' from neutral support, so no, he did not stop and in fact got a push for a good ways while it was worked on.)
Think about how we would gain if it were common knowledge that no one would wait and would in fact attack at Froome's flat on the last HC. Tire manufacturers would be looking for the next flat barrier that rolled well. We common folk win!
Another point - waiting for either a flat or mechanical on probably the deepest funded cycling team ever? A Continental team with a far lower budget, access only to tires a full step down and likewise the rest of their gear should never be obliged to pass the opportunity to shine when the unobtainable fails.
Ben
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 07/11/2017 03:50 PM |
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The commentary is spot on, I actually just posted it on the Velonews forumite FB page.
Waiting for yellow jersey is hogwash, or as the commentary puts it more elegantly the "elastic subjectivity of circumstance". An F1 race continues when it's leader crashes or has a mechanical. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 07/11/2017 04:29 PM |
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Psssst.....it was Dan Martin, not Tony Martin.
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 07/11/2017 06:19 PM |
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| CK, I know that but my fingers didn't get the message. |
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Red Tornado
Posts:159
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| 07/11/2017 07:59 PM |
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Agree with these comments. Also, to play the conspiracy theorist.... Let's say the other contenders somehow manage to put Froome on the ropes later in the Tour. No problem, he can experience a "mechanical" or require a bike change. Everybody sits up out of respect for the yellow jersey, Froome re-joins and it's groupetto compatto again. If Froome/DS/Brailsford are smart about it, they could play this card at least once (maybe 2X?) in the remaining days and get away with it.
I'm not saying that has or will happen, but if I and others can think of it, what about Sky? Kind of an under-handed marginal gain. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 07/11/2017 08:04 PM |
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RT, Froome essentially did that last year when he faked a nature break, forcing the others to wait and allowing his teammate, Stannard, to catch back on after crashing.
That is the strongest argument for chucking this idea of waiting....once it starts being used as a tactical advantage, the idea of sportsmanship is blown. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 07/11/2017 08:10 PM |
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Following this thread with interest.
Just throwing this log on the discussion fire:
Remember the crowds forcing moto full stop running with his broken bike fiasco last year? What if someone was up the road ahead of him?
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Red Tornado
Posts:159
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| 07/11/2017 08:12 PM |
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No one will stop for the green/polka-dot/white jersey as far as I know. Maybe if they respect the yellow, they should respect the others, too. Treat everyone equally.
As mentioned here, in other forms of racing the leader is not shown this courtesy. Not even in mountain biking. I guess if something unfortunate happens, whether your fault or not, that's racin'. Again, everyone is treated equally.
Something to think about though, I wouldn't want to be the guy that everyone says won the Tour because so-and-so had a mechanical or crashed.
Then again, if you have a mechanical, that's between you and the team. The other riders don't have to pay for a mistake/problem they didn't cause. If you crash on your own, well too bad take a better line next time or ride farther away from the spectators (Lance). The only grey area I can see is if someone takes you down. Then again, that's racin'. Everyone gets treated equally and we don't have to worry about the correct application of a gentlemen's agreement that isn't always honored. Basically, I'm agreeing with ya'll, just thinking it through on my keyboard. |
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SideBySide
Posts:444
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| 07/11/2017 10:25 PM |
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| I can see the nature break thing, who would want to be behind him if he decided to go at the front. I think mechanicals should be free game. |
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 07/12/2017 12:55 AM |
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But taking a nature break so a teammate can get back on? No. If you want to pee while you wait for your teammate, fine, but don't expect everyone else to wait. When this starts becoming part of the marginal gains, it has gone well outside a gentleman's agreement.
Ben |
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Red Tornado
Posts:159
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| 07/12/2017 10:01 AM |
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Posted By 79 pmooney on 07/12/2017 12:55 AM
But taking a nature break so a teammate can get back on? No. If you want to pee while you wait for your teammate, fine, but don't expect everyone else to wait. When this starts becoming part of the marginal gains, it has gone well outside a gentleman's agreement.
Ben
+1 |
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Gonzo Cyclist
Posts:568
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| 07/12/2017 10:19 AM |
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The pee break last year was BS.....
So, I'm thinking Ben, what about Contador's controversial attack during Andy's mis-ship?
To me, that was not an attack during a mechanical, it was an attack, and poor Andy just could not shift gears on his bike when he tried to counter attack.
It used to be a gentleman's agreement not to attack the yellow during a mechanical, it's out of respect, and I imagine if you won, you would want to have won it outright, not due to someone else's misfortune.
This new generation though, that seems to be changing, it's every man for himself, and so sorry for your mis-hap, no, I'm not sorry!! Bye! |
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 07/12/2017 10:33 AM |
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Gonzo, as I remember it, Schleck attacked Contador like this was his chance to break Contador and cement the Tour. Contador was just starting to answer when Schleck threw his chain. In a duel are you expected to hold your fire when the other guy draws first but his firing pin jams?
I saw that as not verly noble by Contador, but Schleck really needed to have his house in order if he was going to make the move he did.
Ben
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Gonzo Cyclist
Posts:568
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| 07/12/2017 10:42 AM |
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| ah, that's right, I recall the whole scenario now. Schleck started the hostilities, but did not like the outcome |
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Nick A
Posts:625
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| 07/12/2017 02:50 PM |
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I guess, it's like anything. Everything in moderation. It can get ridiculous, but within reason, I love the "unwritten rules". If most baseball players weren't such knuckle heads, I'd be a bigger fan. But that's the other sport I know a little about (less than cycling) with lots of unwritten rules. For example, showing up a pitcher, getting plunked, a big or small strike zone, so long as it's consistent, etc., etc.
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Cranky Tom
Posts:58
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| 07/12/2017 03:11 PM |
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I'm not a fan of the unwritten rules. There are just too many variables and too much opportunity for abuse. And Greg Lemond agrees: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cycling-riders-lost-ability-race-says-lemond-175157871--spt.html
If a rider wants to make and individual decision to wait for a competitor the way Armstrong did with Ulrich then that's up to him, but to make it an "unwritten rule" that applies to the whole peloton is ridiculous. |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 07/13/2017 06:43 AM |
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Posted By Frederick Jones on 07/11/2017 08:10 PM
Remember the crowds forcing moto full stop running with his broken bike fiasco last year? What if someone was up the road ahead of him?
Yup. It's part of racing just like train crossings in some of the Spring classics.
Break is five minutes up and the field gets stopped at a rail road crossing?
Sucks to be you, guess you should have made the break.
I'm getting tired of the formulaic group rides that passes for racing lately. The local Tuesday evening training race had more excitement this week than most stages in this years Tour. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 07/13/2017 07:37 AM |
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Posted By Dale Dale on 07/13/2017 06:43 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 07/11/2017 08:10 PM
Remember the crowds forcing moto full stop running with his broken bike fiasco last year? What if someone was up the road ahead of him?
Yup. It's part of racing just like train crossings in some of the Spring classics.
Break is five minutes up and the field gets stopped at a rail road crossing?
Sucks to be you, guess you should have made the break.
I'm getting tired of the formulaic group rides that passes for racing lately. The local Tuesday evening training race had more excitement this week than most stages in this years Tour.
I would help significantly if Froome's rivals would stop doing the work for SKY.... |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 07/13/2017 08:50 AM |
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| The train crossing is an exception and there's a written rule for it. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 07/13/2017 10:19 AM |
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| More bullschitt waiting today....SKY rider overshoots a turn at the bottom of a descent, Froome follows him and everyone waits. Such crap....Froome made a mistake. It wasn't a mechanical, it wasn't something outside his control....he fooked up and should be expected to suffer the consequences of his mistake. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 07/13/2017 10:33 AM |
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| Yup complete hogwash. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 07/13/2017 03:13 PM |
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Seriously....what is next? "Oh, the yellow jersey is having a bad day. Let's wait for him....he has clearly been stronger than us in the race, so we shouldn't capitalize on his jour sans."
FFS.... |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 07/16/2017 11:15 PM |
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While ultimately fruitless, I was glad to see AG2R did not wait for Froome when he flatted today. The race was, and had been, in full flight by then. Waiting for him would have been complete BS.
And I'll be honest...when it happened, my initial reaction was that Froome was faking a mechanical in an attempt to get them to slow down. |
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mondonico
Posts:158
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| 07/17/2017 11:57 AM |
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Unwritten rules are BS. IMHO How in the world would the race have waited when it was spread all over the route. This group goes, this group stops.
I would love to see these races go on with out radios and then you can throw all the BS out. You race to win and if things happen you just deal with it. How your luck goes is how it goes. You ave a flat, a mechanical, to over cook a turn. It is all part of racing. I can think of no other race in anyother sport where anyone waits if someone has a problem. I thought Sundays stage was one of the most exciting stages I have seen period. Just racing from the start. And what did Froome do when he got back to the group. Near the end of the stage he attacked just to let them think over the rest day. I am looking forward to the next two stages. I hope they are classics with so many so close and the last week everyone cooked. I have tried to think of a comparison but most sports aren't multi day events. But how about the olympic decatalon. Whould they stop for the leader on the 2nd day if his shoe came untied in the last event the 1500 meters???
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Spud
Posts:525
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| 07/17/2017 03:08 PM |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 07/17/2017 03:19 PM |
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| No radios? Amem! |
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Nick A
Posts:625
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| 07/19/2017 02:31 PM |
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I guess to me, that's the whole thing about unwritten rules. It's impossible to write a rule for everything, so you'd hope people would have class coupled with common sense. Run off the road due to overcooking a turn? (In car racing they call that "running out of talent".) Too bad. Have a wheel collapse when you chose to have some insanely light craziness. Again too bad. Get taken out by a crazed fan running up a climb...well then attacking ain't classy. Just my two cents.
Nick |
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 07/27/2017 09:00 PM |
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Back to Dan Martin. The class act of this year's Tour and the winner in every sense but the results:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/dan-martin-diagnosed-with-two-fractured-vertebrae-after-tour-de-france-top-10/
The guy no one waited for. That 77 seconds would have put him in a completely different place. (Nevermind that he only lost 77 seconds after that crash!) We never heard him whine for sympathy. He just kept racing. That mountain stage (day after his crash? two days?) where he went to the front and just rode everyone to the bone seated the whole time - afterwards he said that he knew he couldn't get out of the saddle with his back injuries so he had no way of defending against Bardet, Froome and the rest in the final kilometers of the climb. If he wanted to stay on pace, he had no choice but to make it so damn hard no one had anything left! Wow!
Now we know he had two broken vertebrae in his back. Again, wow! I don't know if he can win a GC, but the man can ride and he has a huge heart. He's got me as a fan.
Ben |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 07/28/2017 07:05 AM |
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| Nice to have the post tour story be about bravery and toughness and not about b samples |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 07/28/2017 08:38 AM |
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Posted By Frederick Jones on 07/28/2017 07:05 AM
Nice to have the post tour story be about bravery and toughness and not about b samples
It hasn't even been a week....give it time.  |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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