Le Tour 2020 Thread
Last Post 09/24/2020 09:23 AM by Cosmic Kid. 212 Replies.
Author Messages
Cosmic Kid

Posts:4209

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08/19/2020 02:51 PM
We can start with the huge news that INEOS is leaving off BOTH Froome and Thomas for their Tour team. Gotta say, I didn't see that coming.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

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08/19/2020 03:08 PM
They are pencilled in for the later GTs. Froome especially still has a long way to go on his comeback attempt. I’m impressed he’s come this far, his injuries were so severe.
I doubt Jumbo will as dominant as they have been, but are loaded with talent.
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

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08/19/2020 03:42 PM
An Amador for Froome switch is a no brainer. As Froome already said he’s simply not ready physically. Anyone who followed Ain and Dauphine could see this coming from a mile away. The only reason to bring Froome would have been sentimental value but we know Brailsford isn't very sentimental.

Carapaz versus Thomas is less clear cut. Arguably Thomas might have ridden himself in good form and the same task will be before Carapaz as he was only building for Giro and things were a mixed bag for him in Poland. He won a stage but then crashed. A bit of a gamble maybe but Ineos will know the numbers. Too bad he crashed otherwise Poland performance might have been more telling in matchup vs Evenepoel.
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

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08/21/2020 01:50 PM
The Covid rules of engagement are published.

Based on team positives over past weeks and much bigger tour entourage I’d guess we could see 2 to 4 teams forced to exit under these rules. No provision to cancel tour as whole is interesting I guess the show must go on.
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/27/2020 09:53 PM
So Lotto Soudal sent home 2 staffers and roommates for non-negatives. Being staff, this doesn't affect the riders' status.

I'm interested to see how staff and riders play out being considered "separate bubbles? I saw soigneurs mentioned specifically in one mention of the staffs as opposed to the riders. So I presume they are going to do their massages "safely"? How long is that going to last? To keep the riders safe and the Tour moving, shouldn't the word go out that massages are to be virtual or Zoom?

I hope this works but I keep having the feeling this is just a pipe dream.

Ben
longslowdistance

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08/28/2020 06:15 AM
The fans are the biggest issue. Crowded together. Shouting close to the riders.
Cosmic Kid

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08/28/2020 09:59 AM
The fans are the biggest issue. Crowded together. Shouting close to the riders.


Yup.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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08/28/2020 10:14 AM
Not sure. So far in races I’ve seen there haven’t been too many fans. That finish climb in Strada was eerily quiet. But this is Tour so who knows.

Hotels would seem like a bigger risk factor. At least here in BC they’ve been linked to a number of outbreaks.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:4209

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08/28/2020 10:26 AM
From what I understand, teams will be sequestered in entire wings / hotels, with dedicated team staff helping them out and quarantined eating areas. Hopefully that will be enough....

I was extremely skeptical of the Tour finishing, rating it as close to 0% they would finish. After the Dauphine, I am more optimistic, but would still rate it as a 50/50 chance of a finish.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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08/28/2020 10:41 AM
It seems they are intent on finishing so I’d rate it at close to 100%. The protocol seems aimed at booting teams not halting race itself. The Lotto Soudal example perhaps shows that it’s support staff who are perhaps biggest risk factor the sequestering notwithstanding. They are most liable to have outside contact. If they stuck to original protocol (which never made sense because of false positives- see Bora) then LS would already have been booted.
longslowdistance

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08/28/2020 07:25 PM
If what I saw on the Dauphine is repeated over 21 days, spectator to rider transmission is very likely. Maybe boring TTs are just what the doctor ordered this year.
Orange Crush

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08/28/2020 08:04 PM
And two strikes is back. This should be interesting.

https://www.velonews.com/events/tour-de-france/stricter-two-strikes-policy-returns-to-the-tour-de-france-after-government-decision/
Cosmic Kid

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08/28/2020 08:20 PM
Viviani for the win tomorrow.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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08/28/2020 08:48 PM
I’d say Bennett or Sagan. Maybe van Aert.
Cosmic Kid

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08/28/2020 09:44 PM
Bennet is a good call. Was considering Ewan, but he seems to be one of those sprinters that needs a few stages to find his top speed.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

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08/29/2020 09:33 AM
Last man still upright if it keeps going like this. Looking at the weather radar looks it will keep raining.
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/29/2020 11:16 AM
So who had that guy as stage winner and first yellow jersey?
Orange Crush

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08/29/2020 11:17 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 08/28/2020 08:20 PM
Viviani for the win tomorrow.


Is he even in the race? I heard a lot of names in finale but not his. Edit - I see now 6th.
Orange Crush

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08/29/2020 01:00 PM
Posted By 79 pmooney on 08/29/2020 11:16 AM
So who had that guy as stage winner and first yellow jersey?


Kristoff is always a good pick when things turn tough or nasty. He typically starts doing better in tour sprints as race wears on. This is certainly an early surprise.
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/29/2020 03:28 PM
Posted By Orange Crush on 08/29/2020 01:00 PM
Posted By 79 pmooney on 08/29/2020 11:16 AM
So who had that guy as stage winner and first yellow jersey?


Kristoff is always a good pick when things turn tough or nasty. He typically starts doing better in tour sprints as race wears on. This is certainly an early surprise.

Oh, agreed.  I just find it funny that the first fruit of the Tour goes to a name I don't think I've seen mentioned this year.


Orange Crush

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08/29/2020 04:04 PM
Ben - the Belgian headline read Norwegian Bear awakes from his winter slumber and wins Stage 1.

79pmooney

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08/29/2020 04:20 PM
When those bears come out of hibernation, watch out! They're hungry. But August? That bear overslept.
zootracer

Posts:833

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08/29/2020 05:45 PM

Watched a video on Velonews stage 1. I counted 13 crashes.
longslowdistance

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08/29/2020 06:49 PM
I'm still searching for a "body count" of injured contenders (of all sorts, Yellow, stages, etc.) Pinot looked way down in the dumps after his crash, even though he lost no time. Psychological as well as physical injury? Alaphillipe wasted a ton of energy. Others?
Indirect injuries to contenders in the form of injured support riders also counts. Just a guess, but I'll wager no mtbers crashed today unless taken down. They are more likely to have reflexes and neural arcs that keep them upright despite poor traction and two wheel drift, derived from hard experience on variably slick surfaces.
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

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08/29/2020 07:00 PM
The motorcycles had no trouble staying upright today. They also have a small contact patch relative to mass, but moto tires emphasize grip way over rolling resistance. Which makes sense with power measured in kW rather than W for a pro cyclist.
Orange Crush

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08/29/2020 07:28 PM
I’d say only Sikarov was a major casualty not only hitting deck twice but having to chase solo. The rest seems alright. Maybe Pinot, that crash was pretty high speed. Of course Degenkolb is out as he fit not make time limit.
Cosmic Kid

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08/29/2020 07:54 PM
Crazy stage....never would have put Kristoff down as a possible winner, but the conditions suited him perfectly and he cashed the check.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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08/29/2020 08:00 PM
Knee and shoulder for Pinot. Not good.
Cosmic Kid

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08/29/2020 08:47 PM
I'm still searching for a "body count" of injured contenders (of all sorts, Yellow, stages, etc.)


https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/the-tour-de-france-ice-rink-who-crashed-and-whos-hurt/

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

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08/29/2020 09:15 PM
UPDATE - Gilbert out of TdF w/ broken patellla.

AGAIN!!
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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08/29/2020 09:55 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 08/29/2020 08:47 PM
I'm still searching for a "body count" of injured contenders (of all sorts, Yellow, stages, etc.)


https://cyclingtips.com/2020/08/the-tour-de-france-ice-rink-who-crashed-and-whos-hurt/


I counted 29 crashes at that website.

Groupama FDJ - 5 down, 1 very minor
Team Jumbo Visma - 3 down
Isreali Startup Naton - 3 down
Team Lotto Soudal - 3 down, Degenkolb DNS, Gilbert lost 11 minutes, taken to hospital
NTT Pro Cycling - 3 down

Astana - 2 down, Lopez and Sanchez.  Both finished
Team Ineos - 2 down, Sivakov crashed twice and lost a lot of time, hit both hips and knee

Sunweb, Bahrain McLaren, Movistar, EF Pro Cycling, UAE Team Emirates, Trek Segafredo, Deceunick-QS (Alaphllippe) and Bora Hansgrohe, all 1 each


So, 16% of 176 riders hit the deck today.  An auspicious start.

Orange Crush

Posts:4499

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08/29/2020 10:39 PM
I don’t know about their list. Gesink and Martin are totally fine. Of JV only Bennett really had that crash when they were going walking speed.

Gilbert said race jury was really harsh for Degenkolb who rode solo for 65k and missed cut by 2 mins.
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

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08/30/2020 08:06 AM
This is harsh but the Astana crash was their own darned fault. Violated the truce and bang - instant karma.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:4209

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08/30/2020 11:01 AM
I hate seeing J-V burning matches like this....just seems like theyare trying to prove they are the best team, when they should be letting INEOS do the work. Bernal is the defending champion...let them set the pace.

J-V needs to save their matches for when it counts....and now isn't it.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

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08/30/2020 11:25 AM
Alliphillippe played that perfectly......great win!
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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08/30/2020 12:47 PM
Correct on both counts CK
Cosmic Kid

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08/30/2020 04:27 PM
J-V burned through all their riders by the second time up the Col dEze.....and then INEOS took over. Roglic was all alone, except for Dumoulin (who had to chase back on after getting his wheel chopped by Kwiatkowski)

I hate it when I’m right.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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08/30/2020 04:42 PM
Actually in retrospect it sounds like they were trying to set up van Aert today but then he had to sacrifice his own chances to bring Dumoulin back. Still seems like wasted energy to attempt stage wins.
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

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08/30/2020 05:16 PM
Just watched the stage. Very entertaining racing today. The decent off the second big col was incredibly scenic. Great win, too. Doumalin should be po’d. But do watch where you’re going.
Orange Crush

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08/30/2020 05:21 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 08/30/2020 05:16 PM
The decent off the second big col was incredibly scenic.


That was first climb out of Nice in Haute Route Alps in 2015. I touched wheels and crashed hitting my knee much like Dumoulin on descent. Last time I rode a pace line that week. Changed strategy on remaining days.
Cosmic Kid

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08/31/2020 01:19 PM
Man....what an acceleration form Ewan in the closing meters. Holy crap!! Goes from pretty far back to winning by a length.

Super impressive...especially after the first 2 days for him.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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08/31/2020 02:19 PM
Yes the overhead cam was interesting he had to do a lot of weaving around slower sprinters. Other than that it was a yawn fest.

Changed my mind on JV tactic in Stage 2. In retrospect, while it didn't bear fruit, it was perhaps worthwhile expending the effort. Seems they had two objectives, one was to set up van Aert (which didn't happen for a number of reasons including having to pace back Dumoulin), the other might have been an early test of Bernal to see how his back and form really are (he passed that test just fine but OK to try anyway).

Now with DQS in yellow, JV can sit back, at least until tomorrow's final climb.

Interesting also, read an article about a Belgian outfit having done a desk-top safety analysis of the TDF stages. For them stages 5 and 10 stand out as having unnecessary dangerous finishes (traffic furniture and turns inside final couple kms). This is the type of stuff that needs to be done going forward as its pretty easy to run through and can lead to timely changes.
Dale

Posts:1767

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08/31/2020 03:22 PM
Good gravy! Ewen's acceleration is surreal. Boring as could be until the final 500 meters. Thank you NBCGold for allowing me to watch or not watch the entire stage.

Spent about 3 hours messing around on the road bike, got home, and watched the final 5k.
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

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08/31/2020 08:00 PM

The NBCSN Gold analysis of Ewan's storming win was helpful to me. He hid relatively deep in the front of field in a headwind finale and didn't see the wind before the last meters. I like OC's description of Ewan blowing by "slower sprinters". Those slower sprinters were flying given the headwind and effort to be there, but Ewan's 69 kph made them look like they were standing still!
Sagan is in green again after just three stages. Did not think he would not get it back today. Chapeau.
Nerd stuff: Is there a stat for most number of days in green? Have any stat pros retro analyzed Tours before the green jersey was introduced to find retro equivalents? Just observing that if the Emerald City of Oz sponsored the nascent Tour rather than the old L'Equipe, yellow might be second banana. Green is the gold standard in many sports like soccer, baseball, golf tournaments, F1 and Nascar.
Orange Crush

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09/01/2020 10:13 AM
Nice test today. Got dressed at home with 30k to go. Managed to activate big screen at work with 16k to go.
Cosmic Kid

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09/01/2020 10:55 AM
Great finish...last climb was tense!

Bernal was definitely on the rivet…when Roglic responded to Martin’s attack, Bernal popped and pulled off to the left. he was able to recover enough to get on a wheel and finish in the ST, but he was clearly on the limit.

But it also wasn’t a finish that suited him that well…dunno if there is need to panic at INEOS. And there is still a long way to go.

But how about that pull by Wout? dayum…
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/01/2020 11:55 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/01/2020 10:55 AM


But how about that pull by Wout? dayum…


Remember the back and forth on gravity versus aero drag while climbing? Based on gradient and speed of the finish climb aero > gravity so WvA performance is not particular surprise. WvA was actually a stand in, they were going to save him for another day and it was meant to be Bennett doing that pull.
Cosmic Kid

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09/02/2020 09:45 AM
This is a boring ass stage....good lord.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 10:07 AM
I read a live log that said zzzzzzz so have yet to switch on coverage. Last 10k should do it.
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 10:34 AM
Perfect, got in office with 6 to go.
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 10:44 AM
There's no limit on van Aert this year.
Cosmic Kid

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09/02/2020 11:27 AM
Holy schitt....Alaphilippe has lost the yellow jersey because of a decision by the race commissionaires. he took a bottle inside the last 20K and was assessed a 20" penalty.

Fooking lame!!!
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 12:28 PM
Ah well, rules are rules, he would have lost it tomorrow anyway. I has actually been thinking that it would be good for JV if torched got passed on to M-S for week 2.
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 12:56 PM
JA didn't mince too many words about it; almost reads as if DQS are sensing Sagan's weakness this year and instead of trying to keep JA in yellow (unlikely to repeat last year) they are focusing on green.

But for one of the top teams in WT, exactly why do they have a soigneur handing bottles 17 kms from line?
Cosmic Kid

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09/02/2020 01:30 PM
But for one of the top teams in WT, exactly why do they have a soigneur handing bottles 17 kms from line?


Some speculation that it was intentional to lsoe the yellow without having to "lose" the yellow.

But you are right....Deceunick - QS has a decision to make - focus on yellow or green. They can't do both.

But I disagree that JA would have lost the jersey tomorrow.....it is a stage tailor-made for him. Would not be surprised if he wins tomorrow.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 01:40 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/02/2020 01:30 PM
But I disagree that JA would have lost the jersey tomorrow.....it is a stage tailor-made for him. Would not be surprised if he wins tomorrow.


Yes and no. Didn't Quintana leap him yesterday? I mean that wasn't even a finish suited to Quintana. I don't think JA is nearly climbing as well as last year and tomorrow's finale has a lot more climbing than yesterday (while still being relatively benign).
Cosmic Kid

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09/02/2020 02:32 PM
Oh, no doubt JA faltered yesterday.....when he went after Roglic, I thoght he had it, but immediately sat up and faded.

But also remember tomorrow is dead flat the whole day....the course yesterday was a bit lumpy.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 02:47 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/02/2020 01:30 PM
But for one of the top teams in WT, exactly why do they have a soigneur handing bottles 17 kms from line?


Some speculation that it was intentional to lsoe the yellow without having to "lose" the yellow.


Nope..."Deceuninck-QuickStep manager directs anger at team mechanic". Sounds like he's been sent back to Belgium.
longslowdistance

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09/02/2020 05:36 PM
Still that would be a failure of team leadership. This was the opposite of a chaotic stage where it was just impossible to know was happening.
longslowdistance

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09/02/2020 05:39 PM
Excepting the millions of fans who were dozing off. The bike race surely kept no fan alert before the finale unless enchanted by the lovely countryside. Sepp's mechanical was a highlight before the final few K, which = boring stage.
Snark aside, that scenery was enchanting. France is a beautiful country.
Cosmic Kid

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09/02/2020 08:10 PM
Not buying it...Steels statement to the press was pretty damn low-key for that team. Basicaly a shurg and "waht are ya gonan do?"

Vaughters noted that all teams were expressly told before the stage that feeding closed at 20K today....and they in fact pulled their guys back form that exact same spot.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 08:23 PM
Wait, are you wearing a tin foil hat right now? As far as I’m concerned this is a mechanic who probably missed his spot then panicked and made stupid decision to park his butt further down road seeing that on race day traffic flow is one way only hoping that no one would notice.
mondonico

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09/02/2020 08:24 PM
Yea, makes no sense. But he did not walk there, someone had to drop him off, so whats up with that?
79pmooney

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09/02/2020 08:30 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 09/02/2020 05:36 PM
Still that would be a failure of team leadership. ...

Exactly what you don't expect from D-QS.  A major Oops, probably career damaging. Still, kind of comforting,  Even the best have bad days.

In defense of both this employee/contractor and management - this isn't a normal year.  Nobody came to the Tour a battle hardened veteran of 50 or more races in 2020.  And when they showed up, almost everything was a brand new routine.

I"m guessing D-QS will not do this again but it wouldn't surprise me if there is anoth oops by another major team; probably in a totally different arena.

Edit: didn't see there was a page 4!  Beaten to the punch ( and rather badly!)
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 08:50 PM

The offficial results show Alaphillipe, Sepp Kuss, and Carlos Verona (Movistar) all getting 20-second penalties. So we had at least three teams handing water bottles at that spot. Only one of them if any consequence though. Vaughters always wears a tinfoil hat, it’s his thing.
longslowdistance

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09/02/2020 09:15 PM
LOL! Except for when he denied George Hincapie yellow. That was a cold hard capital FFF f you.
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 09:50 PM
Tomorrow’s last 40k sound like they should make for good action and at minimum very scenic. Hinault got humbled here once.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tour-de-france-stage-6-new-stunning-summit-finish-as-gc-road-nears-the-pyrenees/
Cosmic Kid

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09/02/2020 10:42 PM
h. Vaughters always wears a tinfoil hat, it’s his thing


Vaughters never said it was intention.....I do think it is awfully weird and out of character for QS (especially their acceptance of it). So it raises questions for me....if JA wins tomorrow, I will gladly concede.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

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09/02/2020 11:46 PM
JA probably has both a better chance and more incentive now (at pulling off tomorrow's stage). Stage hunter? JA? Isn't that what he does? (Until that stage hunting turns his jersey yellow.)

It sounds to me like JA knew all along he wasn't cut out to go far in yellow with his current conditioning so each stage was just a gift (that could be wearing on both he and the team). That gig over, he can go back to doing what he does best; damage when he's on and now it's OK to not be on and cool the jets.
Orange Crush

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09/02/2020 11:58 PM
MS will want to hold on to that jersey that got thrown in their lap and Yates will want to earn it outright. I don’t think there will be much leash tomorrow.
Cosmic Kid

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09/03/2020 09:51 AM
That stage was a big bowl of meh.....
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/03/2020 09:57 AM
Yup. Disappointing.
longslowdistance

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09/03/2020 12:36 PM
Yes, boring.
longslowdistance

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09/04/2020 12:17 PM
Wow! Now that was some bike racing!
79pmooney

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09/04/2020 01:54 PM
Two Cat 3s, a Cat 4, all before halfway,then downhiil all the way to the finish. Nothing to see here.

Wow! Bike racing at its best (unless you happened to be a sprinter or didn't ride the front the entire day).
Cosmic Kid

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09/04/2020 08:11 PM
That was a crazy ass stage....I happened to wake up early and flipped on the TV. Saw KM0 and it was on from the gun.

Once Bora had done what they needed to do and seemed ready to ease up, INEOS picked up the mantle and shredded the field.

No shock that Landa and Porte lost time when they shouldn’t have....true to brand for both of them.

And Wout...jeez, what a stud.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/04/2020 08:32 PM

Interesting commentary on Velonews. Ineos skewered the peloton in crosswinds in 2019. The guys that lost time last year are the exact same that lost time this year. That is either uncanny or goes to show some don’t learn well.
Orange Crush

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09/04/2020 08:34 PM
Oh and shame for Carapaz. He looks like he’s coming along but got shedded due to mechanical.
longslowdistance

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09/04/2020 08:50 PM
did you mean shame or rather pity?
Orange Crush

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09/04/2020 09:03 PM
Pity. As in that’s a shame.
Orange Crush

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09/04/2020 09:53 PM
Also interesting commentary from Lefevre acknowledging they got skewered today on a stage that is typically tailored to DQS. Emphasizes again they started banking on green instead of yellow but Bennett missed the boat big time. He’s just lucky that in finale Sagan chain skipped so he didn’t factor in sprint.
79pmooney

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09/05/2020 05:19 PM
What racing today! J-V laid it out, KO'd Pinot but showed they had a human side also. Kuss, in his home territory, couldn't do it after yesterday's wind work. Roglic rode very well, but Dumoulin is out of it.

My favorite, NQ, is doing just what he needs to do and appears to be riding a very smart Tour. Hoping he can hang where he is and show his stuff on Stage 17 with the two long HCs and a finish at most of the altitude of his childhood.
Cosmic Kid

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09/06/2020 10:43 AM
Good racing the last 3 days....but Roglic is going to regret not putting time into Bernal the last two days. Mark my words....

Hirschi...oh man. That hurts....he could have win that sprint, but he went too early. What a story line that would have been.

Bummed to see Dumoulin sacrifice his chances for Roglic...I just don’t think he has the killer mentality to win the Tour.

Pinot...something always goes wrong for that guy. I think a lot of it is in his head, personally. I love him, but he just doesn’t have the mental toughness to win a GT, IMO.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/06/2020 11:03 AM
Still pretty wide open race.For a little while it looked like herd of contenders might get culled but those clawed themselves back to 11 seconds. A lot can still happen in week three.

TdF is looking like Giro in a typical year. Guess that comes with territory of being first in season.
79pmooney

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09/06/2020 11:33 AM
OC, I love that this isn't the Postal/Discoveyr/Sky/Ineos express train. (Train leaves the platform at 12:00. Arrive early, pay for good sears and board that first car. It will be dropping it's last car at intervals as it goes.) J-V has that power but they've used it to blow stages apart, not stop anything interesting from happening.

CK, I felt all along that Dumoulin doesn't quite have the power to weight and "the dance" for really serious vertical and that he knows that. He can pull it off for maybe one stage because he has one h*** of an engine but he has to red-line to do it. This Tour has more of those than he can do. Also, he's not going to be taking a lot of time back on the penultimate day ITT with that 500m finish.

It would have been better for J-V if Dumoulin could have held on longer at the thin end of the GC to give other teams more to watch and keep Roglic out of the spotlight but at the same time, Dumouln was a large part in blowing the Tour apart and hurting many of their foes in places where it played to his strengths. And now, Dumoulin can use his abilities to do further damage, then pull off, lose time and save himself for another day (of either doing still more damage or pulling off a stage win for his sponsors). If I were the J-V management, I wouldn't be to upset with how things are playing out.
79pmooney

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09/06/2020 11:43 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/06/2020 10:43 AM
Good racing the last 3 days....but Roglic is going to regret not putting time into Bernal the last two days. Mark my words....

And Quintana.  Yeah, he lost 15 seconds today.  But getting separated, he could have lost a lot more.  Since he is often not right up front, I don't see much footage/commentary of him but it seams like he has been riding very smart and that he has the ability to be in groups with decent cooperation, something not all riders have.   Stage 17 could be a Quintana/Bernal showcase and a nightmare for Roglic.  (I don't wish the nightmare but I really want to see that showcase!)
Cosmic Kid

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09/06/2020 06:01 PM
OC, no doubt that this was a bad course for Dumoulin. The Giro would have been a better option for him this year.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/06/2020 06:58 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/06/2020 06:01 PM
OC, no doubt that this was a bad course for Dumoulin. The Giro would have been a better option for him this year.


I made no such statement. Was that Ben? I think Dumoulin could have done well on this course . It’s just too early and he tends to put negative thought in his head. IMO he made a bad call yesterday to sacrifice himself. JV management thinks he made a bad call but it was too late to correct it. They talked to him and now Tom sees the error of his decision.Oh well.
Dale

Posts:1767

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09/06/2020 07:21 PM
Heartbreaker for sure... as soon as he jumped I yelled, “TOO SOON!”

Unrelated to racing but geeze Louise, somebody teach these guys how to throw a water bottle. What’s with the weak toss or worse yet just dropping them in the road like it’s a hand grenade to blow up three seconds behind them.

Tom Steeles needs to put on a clinic for this generation.
Cosmic Kid

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09/06/2020 07:53 PM
OC, maybe I misinterpreted your post....but agree 100% with your last one.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/06/2020 08:42 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/06/2020 07:53 PM
OC, maybe I misinterpreted your post....but agree 100% with your last one.


Probably then. My Giro comment was meant to indicate that this Tour seems as wide open and exciting as Giro typically is. Am thinking it is maybe because of its placement in season. Teams aren’t as strong so it brings about a one on one fight between leaders.
Orange Crush

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09/08/2020 09:27 AM
Ahem.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ineos-grenadiers-mitchelton-cofidis-and-ag2r-staff-test-positive-for-coronavirus-at-tour-de-france/
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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09/08/2020 10:42 AM
Bigger news - maybe not affecting racing but on the world stage - the most visible face in cycling, Christian Prudhomme tested positive. This should keep contact tracers busy. Perhaps a cluster of positives. Could be ban news for cycling. (Hoping to be wrong.)
Orange Crush

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09/08/2020 03:28 PM
What Prudhomme's example and four team member staff member positives show is that, like I said, the social interactions are biggest risk factor. Yes, the fans along road present a risk as well but the primary risk remains and has always been close interactions. Prudhomme being in organizing group and also hosting daily guests in car of course put him at heightened risk so this is not a surprise. Curious if a guest brought it in. Yes, the contact tracing should be interesting. Also for the four teams with one positive each (not necessarily a big puzzle for them but it could put valuable assets at risk).
mondonico

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09/08/2020 04:31 PM
And if I'm correct one more pos from any team member or rider by Monday and the whole team is out for the four pos. is it tru they don't test again till Monday.
longslowdistance

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09/08/2020 05:11 PM
To add to the confusion: false positive PCR (nasal test for acute infections) are uncommon but do occur. And there is is possibility of re-infection, but IMO those folks are highly unlikely to be contagious, even though they may test positive for a time. (To be clear, this reinfection issue is far from resolved, just my opinion. I do follow the medical literature.)
79pmooney

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09/08/2020 05:12 PM
I'm guessing that those teams and staff get tested further. No way French pandemic officials are going to just let this lie for a week and let this blow up. (Witness how fast the change to 2 riders, not 2 riders+staff got reverted.)
Orange Crush

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09/08/2020 07:06 PM
I believe the teams are internally testing daily and are to report this to organization (tour doctor). Of course this is a bit of an honor system. The team testing includes a check list for potential symptoms.

The next overall big sweep test by ASO is indeed only next Monday. LSD - there were a few false positives yesterday which were corrected through secondary tests that came back negative.

Yes, looks like French government forced ASO to keep the two strikes and entire team is out. So four teams are now at heightened risk. I forget what I initially estimated this to be but figured maybe 2-6 teams may get removed. Can you imagine if Bernal gets removed just after grabbing the race lead at Columbier on Sunday?
Cosmic Kid

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09/08/2020 08:04 PM
I believe the teams are internally testing daily and are to report this to organization (tour doctor). Of course this is a bit of an honor system.


That is the first I have heard that....but if true, then the teams should just send riders home if they test positive for “saddle sores” or “knee problems” and avoid the issue entirely.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

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09/08/2020 08:25 PM
Back to the racing. I've been updating my Tour roster with crashes as I learn them. To date, I've heard that a full 1/3 of the peloton has seen the asphalt up close and personal. (Some of them more than once. And I am sure I've missed a few.)

Good work for D-QS and Sam Bennett.

Road furniture - I don't know the answer. Take roads back to pre-furniture so everyone drives at US speeds with US-like numbers of accidents? Stay off the heavily furnitured roads and stick to very rural roads, missing some of the best and most visible of France? Stick to major roads like highways? (Boring!) Better jobs of markings and padding - yes. The Tour does have the money, the resources and power to be heard.
Orange Crush

Posts:4499

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09/08/2020 08:36 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/08/2020 08:04 PM
I believe the teams are internally testing daily and are to report this to organization (tour doctor). Of course this is a bit of an honor system.


That is the first I have heard that....but if true, then the teams should just send riders home if they test positive for “saddle sores” or “knee problems” and avoid the issue entirely.


IIRC It is a 2x daily health check questionnaire to be completed by team doctor and submitted to ASO doctor. I do a 1x daily self check form before heading to work. It is like that I assume. Yes definitely potential to send suspect folks home with an excuse. It’s screening level and definitely not foolproof.
Cosmic Kid

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09/09/2020 12:58 PM
Damn....I hate it when Sagan gets relegated.

Total BS move by him.....tried to squeeze into a gap that wasn't there and initiated contact to create the space.

Likely means the end of the green jersey campaign for him....but look for him to go in the break tomorrow to try and get some points back.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/09/2020 02:51 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/09/2020 12:58 PM
but look for him to go in the break tomorrow to try and get some points back.


Or quit the race in protest and focus on Giro.
Cosmic Kid

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09/09/2020 08:10 PM
I could definitely see that, OC....
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

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09/09/2020 09:21 PM
The overhead of Sagan's move is pretty damning. Yes, there are moments then there was room for Sagan but being clear behind and getting a moment of opportunity? No, that doesn't give you the green light.

Funny, I tried to squeeze between two riders in a race when I had just chased hard to get back on (I dropped my chain) and wanted to get as far up as I could to start the hill we were hitting. They came together as I arrived and sandwiched me. Rider to my leftt was pissed. Grabbed my jersey and threw me back! That hurt but I knew he was right; that I had no business being there. What Sagan did was exactly the same, just a barrier instead of an rider to the right and a whole lot faster. And he muscled his way through like somehow he was in the right.

So Sagan is playing the man to put some hair on van Aert's chest. He might come to regret that!

Ben
79pmooney

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09/10/2020 11:46 AM
Sagan is saying he didn't think his move (to pass between van Aert and the barriers) was dangerous - dangerous or no, it was illegal. The penalty he received was SOP for that move. If Sagan wanted a bye on that pass, he had to get by van Aert without touching him. He failed that part badly.

Some of this sprinting stuff is a lot like sailboat racing. Position can be everything. And both sports have detailed rules that give rights to some riders/boats and obligations to stay clear to others. Knowing those rules can make a huge difference. A real part of both sports is that you don't always have to adhere to the rule, but when you don't - don't touch anybody! Or make them do something to accommodate you. Sagan flunked that part badly. (It was pretty obvious that the gap he wanted to shoot wasn't going to stay open long enough for him to get through.) Good sailboat racing? "Well, I can get 10 more points passing van Aert. I can lose 50 points or more if I touch him. Hmmm, maybe, just maybe backing off is a smarter decision."

That said, we (the U of Mich sailing team) won the Kennedy's Cup at the Annapolis Naval Academy by doing illegal inside mark roundings all weekend at the leeward mark and passing several boats each time. (We were there the year before. Our skipper, then a freshman, noticed that when you put the helm down (turned the wheel to start a turn), it took a couple of boat lengths for anything to happen on those heavy and sluggish 44' boats. So, next year with him now at the helm, he announced to all of us that he was putting the helm down 2 lengths before we got to the mark; that it was up to us to do a perfect and clean job of sail handling (dropping the spinnaker and raising the jib) because any small mistake would cost us the regatta.

Every race we did that. Every race, the hole was there. And every time, we pulled it off. I was working the mast. My primary job was getting the spinnaker pole up and down. Not a tough job but that pole had to be down at the mark to pull those rounding off. I had to jump up and stand on a winch to reach the overhead bell fitting the pole fit into and pull a lanyard to remove the locking pin. Pole sliides out, I grab it and pass it down to the foredeck man. One time, I yanked the lanyard and it broke! Well, the pin stuck down an inch or so below the fitting so I tried banging it up with my hand while holding tie pole in the other. 2 or 3 tries and nothing, That pole had to come down! So I grabbed the mast with my right hand and slammed the pin with my left. Pin went two feet in the air, pole slid out, grazed (my head?; I've forgotten) fell and was caught by the alert foredeck man. I got to be the hero of the day. (We found the pin. Losing that would have been a real problem!)

Sagan had to pull off similar gymnastics he he didn't want that relegation and points loss.
Dale

Posts:1767

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09/10/2020 01:36 PM
Selfie sticks protruding past the fence, some funky barrier blocks sticking out... what's with that?

Sagan should have been relegated but something has to be done by the race organizers. Get those fans back off the fence in the last 500 meters, and clean up the fences. It's inexcusable. It looked like he moved over to avoid all that stuff but he did barge into Woot.
Orange Crush

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09/10/2020 02:33 PM
Sagan acknowledged he never even saw the selfie stick. So yes, it should not be where it was. But it didn't factor in what happened.

The barrier yes, that stuff for sure needs to be done better and is fully in organizers control. Inexcusable.
Orange Crush

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09/11/2020 10:22 AM
Stage for Columbia.

GC is two Slovenians followed by four Columbians.

Interesting stuff. Good race today. Good day for Roglic.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:4209

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09/11/2020 10:29 AM
Good stage....surprised Bernal cracked like that. He has to go on a rampage in the Alps now.

Pogacar is obviously the biggest threat to Roglic now.....time bonuses may end up being critical as Pog has more pop than Rog right now.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/11/2020 07:59 PM
Oh and is this the year of Richie or what!?
79pmooney

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09/11/2020 11:15 PM
Richie Porte? Richie Valens? (I thought he passed a while ago? Richie Haven? Haven't seen his name in a long time. Richie Russo? (My hockey nemesis. Has a good, hard, high slap shot. Found chinks in my armor many times. 10 days of solid, often bone, bruise every time. And he'd kill me for calling him Richie.)
Cosmic Kid

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09/12/2020 06:51 AM
Oh and is this the year of Richie or what!?


Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

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09/12/2020 10:56 AM
That was a perfectly timed move by Andersen and Sunweb. They pretty much ate Bora’s lunch today.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

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09/12/2020 03:48 PM
Sagan did pick up 20 points on Bennet so it wasn't a total loss, but Sagan and the team had to work really had for it, even after Bennet was sitting up and cruising..
79pmooney

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09/12/2020 04:07 PM
Tomorrow is the day I have pegged for Quintana. It never gets up to his favorite altitudes (very little in Europe does) but it does have his lengths, gradients and locations en course. If he wants to do anything this year, this is it. He's been riding very smart up to this point. He's lost 72 seconds but not burned any matches.

So, is he up to it?
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

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09/12/2020 08:54 PM
Odds that tomorrow is a deciding stage? This amateur's guess: 20% or less, more likely to be defensive, plus or minus a few seconds at the finish (Significant yes. Boring yes.) That said, I would love it if Q proves me wrong tomorrow. And if he does, win or lose, thanks.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:4209

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09/13/2020 06:36 AM
Higuita our of the Tour...crashed early in the stage apparently. Tried to get back on but had to abandon.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

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09/13/2020 07:13 AM
Wow Bardet’s concussion is very severe. Imagine with no helmet.
Cosmic Kid

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09/13/2020 07:22 AM
Disgraceful he was allowed to continue....
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/13/2020 09:27 AM
That’s brutal. How was that missed? Clearly the UCI protocol was not followed.
Orange Crush

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09/13/2020 09:50 AM
Bernal is toast. Quintana toast.
Cosmic Kid

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09/13/2020 09:57 AM
Yup...game over for both. They will each lose minutes today.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

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09/13/2020 10:07 AM
3rd slot on the podium now up for grabs...who gets it? Landa, Rigo, or someone else?
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/13/2020 10:21 AM
Porte CK Porte (haha)
Cosmic Kid

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09/13/2020 10:34 AM
Porte CK Porte (haha)


Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

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09/13/2020 11:42 AM
So my Tour hopes have been dashed. Not entirely surprised, but a strong ride from NQ would have brightened my day. (And I need it. I can barely see three houses up the street.)

So now we have Pogacar and Sagan in the rough, wedges in hand and chipping away. If they can pull off enough birdies, they can do it. Bennett is impressing me. Fun to see a real green jersey competition. (Both their teams have done some hard work!)

Bardet- I just started reading Michael Bennet's "Things That Make White People Uncomfortable". Early on, he's talked about the CET in the NFL, that players are basically cannon fodder. (Good book. He writes well and has a lot to say. His heart is in the right place. And yes, it is not all fun to read.) The flip side is that the players and riders have a fierce desire to carry on, damn the torpedoes. I probably shouldn't have raced a last season and likewise, probably should have hung up the bike. I an sure my brain would be less scrambled if I could have been smarter about a few things but I do not have regrets.

Ben
Orange Crush

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09/13/2020 12:11 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/13/2020 10:34 AM
Porte CK Porte (haha)




I would generally have same spit in coffee reaction but looking at standings 3rd spot would seem to be between Uran and Porte as relatively good in TT of which the latter looked fresher today.
longslowdistance

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09/13/2020 03:57 PM
So Jumbo is the new Sky, but easier to like (so far). Boring.
And when one country rises, it’s easy to be skeptical.
Orange Crush

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09/13/2020 04:12 PM
It looked like a dominant performance by JV but if you look closer than group in the end was pretty big and the differences at finish pretty small. The overall top 8 is also still pretty tight. This was different when Sky was dominant and Froome was flying. Even though they are riding in controlling fashion JV far from have this in the bag. They emulate the (boring) tactic but not in same dominant fashion.
Dale

Posts:1767

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09/13/2020 08:19 PM
As an aside, watching the final climb sans the usual band of idiots (think longhorn man, fake-Borat, et al) was a delight.

Woot at the front must make people cry like they haven’t wept since the days of Jensie.
That last pull he made, what, 7k and shedding guys out the back like a redneck pitches beer cans out the window of a ‘79 F-150. What a beast!
Cosmic Kid

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09/14/2020 09:40 AM
And when one country rises, it’s easy to be skeptical.


90's - Italy
00's - US
10's - GB
20's - Slovenia (?)

Things that make you go "Hmmmmm....."

OC, re: Porte....I actually agree and would really like to see him on the podium. But he always manages to screw things up somewhere.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/14/2020 10:56 AM
You're missing Spain in that list though. There can be concurrent rises.

Columbia is an interesting case too.

Lots of direct smoke & fire around Slovenia re: Aderlass.

The one that always seems to fly just below the radar is Belgium.
79pmooney

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09/14/2020 12:17 PM
Posted By Orange Crush on 09/14/2020 10:56 AM
You're missing Spain in that list though. There can be concurrent rises.

Columbia is an interesting case too.

Lots of direct smoke & fire around Slovenia re: Aderlass.

The one that always seems to fly just below the radar is Belgium.

"Lots of direct smoke & fire around Slovenia re: Aderlass."  Oregon too, but drug tests seem to only come with THC regularly. 

There is another factor here - genetic body types.  There are peoples (before civilization, no one would be offended calling them tribes) that have body types very well suited their native environments and for specific activities.  Some sports (and certain positions of team sports) are dominated by people from certain places.  Marathons and the high altitudes of Kenya.

In cycling - the small people from the high altitudes of Columbia dominate in the mountains.  The Belgians and Dutch I have known, although not cyclists at all, certainly look like powerful roleurs.  (OC, you do not look physically like one of my Dutch friends.  This isn't a universal statement.)

I am reading a book written by one of the strongest players in the NFL.  He talks openly about his ancestors being slaves.  I am pretty certain, those slaves came from West African tribes noted for their size and strength and that commanded high prices as field hands.  (At 11 years old, he lifted a tractor that was about to crush his granddad.)

Cycling also goes through changes.  3 week tours sometimes favor all-arounders and power, sometimes more altitude.  A flow of changes in team tactics.  Rule changes.  The popularity of the various types of racing.  So best body types for the sport isn't a constant.

I am not ruling out the drug enhancements.  We all know the EPO years, have wondered when we are going to hear what Sky did.  Belgians?  Colombia with its huge domestic coca scene (I doubt the riders use a lot of cocaine but that does create a "culture")...  Right now, the Tour Colombians are looking quite real!  Quintana and Bernal not looking super-human at all.  But being walked on by Slovenians?  Hmmm.  Granted, both of those Colombians have crashed hard recently, Quintana very hard back in July.

Another aspect of the flow of nationalities in cycling is political/circumstantial.  As cycling becomes both known and possible as a way out for blue collar young men and one of their countrymen leads the way as an example, that country then becomes a source of young men motivated to "get out" like the Blacks of inner city US through basketball.  (Now those young men often are not grounded in the middleclass white US notion of "clean and fair play".  The "rules"  of the outdoor courts of the US inner city and the roads of eastern Europe are quite unlike the prep school I played my sports at.  We played to win cleanly.  They play to get out.  If that means an elbow to a place where it doesn't belong or taking this or that, well if that young man can get out, make good money and send some to his mom, isn't that good?

No answers here.  But I try to keep an open heart.  Yes, I want better testing and a cleaner sport but that is as much so those young men don't have to poison themselves in their quest.  The early EPO deaths, Lyle Alzedo, Cortez Kennedy.  Shouldn't happen.  Ex-players and riders should be able to live a decent life.

Ben
Cosmic Kid

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09/15/2020 09:59 AM
Bernal riding in the same group as Bennett on a mountain stage in the Tour.

Raise your hand if you had THAT scenario on your 2020 Hellscape Bingo Card?
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Dale

Posts:1767

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09/15/2020 12:28 PM
Gotta admire Bernal for manning up and saying he just doesn't have it rather than trotting out a bunch of whiny excuses but to your point, no way could anyone have predicted his implosion.

Orange Crush

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09/15/2020 01:06 PM
From his smile to camera and overall body language, Bernal was where he wanted to be today. He had said he wanted to carry water bottles for team one day. Perhaps today was that day. But yes to your point, he certainly was on shortlist of favorites so him cracking like he did was not on many scenarios.

Bit of a yawner aside from Kuss touching wheels with Roglic and almost crashing Pogacar in the process.

Kamna is real deal. He was part of winning Sunweb Worlds TTT team back in 2017 alongside Dumoulin and apparently made quite the impression.
longslowdistance

Posts:2881

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09/15/2020 01:58 PM
A (clean) German star could be good for the sport. Seems like Germans turned away after Ulrich’s fall.
As for is the peloton clean??, the race is at EPO speeds this year.
Orange Crush

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09/15/2020 03:05 PM
Interesting comments on Bernal's predicament here, from Lefevre:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/egan-bernal-im-screwed-up-on-all-sides/

Too much hard riding on a soft foundation caused by COVID period leading to back problems etc. It seems to be a bit of a recurring theme with a number of riders. There were several with complaints in Dauphine. The lack of a proper training foundation could also explain JA's lackluster performance. The way he got dropped today.

Of course for Bernal a lot of other things changed too, broke up with his long-term girlfriend, broke up with his long-term mentor, new manager, moved residence...the things that come with sudden stardom.
Cosmic Kid

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09/15/2020 03:18 PM
Hmmm....It isn't like Bernal sat on a couch for 2 months and then jumped out the door to do 8-10 hour training rides. (Honestly, I don't know if Colombia was ever on the type of lockdown that much of Europe was. he may have been training outside the whole time).

My guess is that it is exactly as it seems...he was overtrained. That by itself could have led to the back problems....tired legs so you start trying to find ways to keep them going, straining the muscles in your back to the point of injury.

I think Occam has a razor he'd like to give Patrick....

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/15/2020 04:57 PM
Hmmm. I personally strain my back when I am undertrained. I.e. when I go for a stupid hard climbing ride that I am insufficiently prepared for; the week following is typically full of back pain and needing to take it easy. When I am over-trained I just end up going slow and feel empty but it doesn't lead to injury. Apparently Bernal had a 2 months lock down (from the original interview with Lefevre on Sporza). Afterwards he went on some stupid long rides (as a lot of pros did) but those are also not best for training intensity. I think he lost the training plot and then suddenly was faced with a really hard Dauphine (much tougher than usual), which led to injury.
Orange Crush

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09/15/2020 08:06 PM
Actually minor correction, old memory is slow to come back. I do remember an injury after being wound too tight. This was immediately after Haute Route. Stumbled over a minor surface unevenness and leg shot in cramp that took weeks to recover from. So yes either over or under training scenario is plausible but give his personal situation I’d still guess at under.
longslowdistance

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09/15/2020 08:34 PM
The human lumbar spine is a woeful failure of evolution. Never intended to bear weight as it does, rather evolved for walking on all fours, or short of that hanging by arms. As a pain generator in modern humans, who prefer to walk on two legs and have jobs that result in sitting for hours, not to mention lifting objects or just bad luck, it has few or no rivals.
longslowdistance

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09/15/2020 08:38 PM
PS: this Tour has become a snooze fest.
Makes my back hurt just trying to get interested.
79pmooney

Posts:3178

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09/15/2020 08:48 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 09/15/2020 08:34 PM
The human lumbar spine is a woeful failure of evolution. Never intended to bear weight as it does, rather evolved for walking on all fours, or short of that hanging by arms. As a pain generator in modern humans, who prefer to walk on two legs and have jobs that result in sitting for hours, not to mention lifting objects or just bad luck, it has few or no rivals.

lsd - rather off topic - I said roughly the same to my PT after my most painful bike crash 20 years ago, not knowing she was a fundamentalist Christian.  (Wrecked shoulder, broken ribs, collapsed lung.)  She took great offense.  It was a stone cold session.  She was, by far, the best that has ever worked on me.  The only person who could manipulate my shoulder without excruciating pain.  Her hands were God's gift.  I kept my mouth solidly shut after that and went out of my way to give her very high recommendations.
79pmooney

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09/15/2020 08:55 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 09/15/2020 08:38 PM
PS: this Tour has become a snooze fest.
Makes my back hurt just trying to get interested.

The green jersey run is kind of fun.  Bennett was up to the task today. (Barely that one time when Sagan almost caught him daydreaming.)

Looks like Rolland is going to take the mountain jersey to Paris.  I was hoping to see Cosnefroy take it al the way but he's been missing the oppurtunities to pad his lead.

longslowdistance

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09/15/2020 09:10 PM
Just my opinion, but this Tour route is less Sagan friendly than previous. Peter benefits from stages hard enough to shake out the pure bunch sprinters but not the classic specialists. He can hang with both and viola, another maillot vert. This year includes just a few of those stages, and he hasn't capitalized on those limited opportunities.
This fan is disappointed that the green and polka dot jerseys are far more compelling than which rider from a flyspeck sized country will win yellow on a Tour with record setting speed but no doping positives.
This is failing the smell test.
Maybe Peter Sagan is a bit like Greg Lemond in Indurain's first win, simply completely steamrolled by a new doping regime.
Orange Crush

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09/15/2020 09:11 PM
The GC is still relatively tight so from that perspective this Tour has been good.

But the course is crap and hasn't offered much opportunity for adventurists. Definite fail for amount of hype it got.

I do think that tomorrow and Thursday will be excellent.

Go Richie! Uran looked vulnerable at end today.
longslowdistance

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09/15/2020 09:13 PM
Thank you for this optimism.
Orange Crush

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09/15/2020 09:17 PM
LSD - I feel Sagan simply lost motivation. He hasn't been same since his separation. Not in any race. Agreed that with amount of climbing this year his opportunities have been limited.

The polka dot has zero interest from me this year. Just not a compelling competition at any point in time. That one is the biggest snoozer of all the jerseys.

I've been reading about this speed breaking Tour. Its interesting because the amount of riders that finish in JVs wake within a handful of seconds is much bigger than in Ineos year. Which would tend to suggest either the entire top 10 ish is on the sauce or no one is.
Orange Crush

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09/15/2020 10:00 PM
Btw - Col de Glieres Thursday 6 kms at 11% is where things will shake out.
longslowdistance

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09/15/2020 10:12 PM
Got that. Will watch intently, if not another snoozefest!.
79pmooney

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09/16/2020 12:35 AM
Speaking of sauce - I wonder if there is a new testing regime that could catch whatever it is that has been the sky/Ineos magic. That one of their marginal gains has been taken off the table. As a team, they look a whole lot more human this year. I'm thinking maybe the Colombians might also be somewhat sauce free. Maybe we will read about it in a tell-all in 5 years.

Ben
Cosmic Kid

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09/16/2020 06:46 AM
Bernal out...going home to rest, recuperate and reassess.

If he touches his bike in the next week, someone needs to tackle him.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/16/2020 09:39 AM
Looks like Poels spine is stronger than Bernals.

Good to see him at head of peloton after two weeks of survival mode.

Looks like it will once again come down to final 3k. The harder they make these routes the longer they wait.
Orange Crush

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09/16/2020 11:12 AM
Well that was certainly an interesting final 4k. Hope you were at least somewhat entertained LSD.

The stretching and shrinking elastic between Roglic and Podagar as gradients varied was fascinating.

Gutted for Carapaz; that was a gutsy ride but it was always clear he didn't have enough buffer.

Looks like Superman is doing it for the Columbians. Porte got passed Uran but he can't afford to let the gap to Lopez grow too big.

Tomorrow will be last day for non-TT specialists to try a long-range attack with Glieres as the launch pad. Last call for Landa, although today already showed his limitations again.
Orange Crush

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09/16/2020 01:46 PM
BTW - Slovenia is a beautiful country with excellent food. I briefly set foot in it in 2012 (the medieval coastal town of Piran, south of Trieste), courtesy of in-law family with benefits. They own a motor cycle related business (https://www.deprettomoto.com/) and also own a boat that took us from Venice to Piran. Posh. Posh.

Slovenia sits next to Italy so an emerging cycling culture now that they they are out of claws of former Yugoslavia is perhaps not a surprise. The Giro always visits this border region. If you read about the history of the Giro and its role in trying to be a unifying force for Italy, the reason why they do this is because this region and Trieste as main city have historically been in dispute and have flipped hands a few times. Slovenia is mostly cut of from Mediterranean because of Italy's insistence on keeping Trieste in fold.
longslowdistance

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09/16/2020 06:53 PM
Yes thanks OC I was entertained! Still I miss the epic flyers but that’s not how it works today. Hopeful for some fireworks tomorrow
Orange Crush

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09/16/2020 07:16 PM
The epic flyers are not ever coming back unfortunately. Doping or no doping, radios or no radios, the teams are simply too strong for this. Not like the old days where they grabbed a guy off the street and called him a domestique. The increased professionalism and training programs have killed the excitement of old. On top of that for the Tour everyone brings their A team. In Vuelta and Giro you still see B teams hence flyers and excitement can still happen there. That is the contradiction that is Tour, biggest race is also often the most boring.
Orange Crush

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09/17/2020 09:49 AM
They don’t have gravel in Tasmania evidently.
longslowdistance

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09/17/2020 01:10 PM
Great stage. Even had an epic flyer!
longslowdistance

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09/17/2020 08:10 PM
And I found myself rooting for a team I usually dislike, which was fun, too. Classy work today.
Orange Crush

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09/17/2020 08:25 PM
Yes that was quite the showmanship of those two.
longslowdistance

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09/17/2020 09:41 PM
Felt genuine to me. Maybe I'm gullible.
Orange Crush

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09/17/2020 10:15 PM
Agreed on the genuine. But still a good show.
Dale

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09/18/2020 10:40 AM
When you just sit around and wait for someone else to chase down the break that's what happens... solo win.

I was hoping for some fireworks, all I got was a green sparkler that fizzled. Some weak milk-toast jog to the line by Bennett and Sagan.
Orange Crush

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09/18/2020 10:55 AM
This stage was never going to be exciting after last two days and with TT tomorrow. I dialed in at about 19k to go.

Sunweb got their third which is brilliant confirmation of their focus on stage hunting instead of GC.

Sagan must be pretty frustrated having Bennett as his shadow all day and getting outsprinted at every opportunity. Well played by Bennett.
Orange Crush

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09/18/2020 03:43 PM
Also just considering that despite our skepticism they actually managed to run this thing till the end.

The bubble concept seems to be holding.

Also curious, the Germans didn't select Kamna for WC which was a big surprise until someone piped up and said the Germans selected on basis of bubbles not form. Strange times.
Cosmic Kid

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09/18/2020 05:00 PM
Quote Reply Alert
Also just considering that despite our skepticism they actually managed to run this thing till the end.

The bubble concept seems to be holding


Yeah, I was just thinking about this today. I am shocked not only that they made it to the finish, but also that not a single rider caught the virus at some point. And also very happy about it, especially given the idiots on the roadside.

So what can we learn from this? How can we take the concepts used in France and apply them to our schools and communities so we can open up more?
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

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09/18/2020 05:06 PM
You guys, careful! Murphy hasn't been sleeping well and there are two more nights and days.
Orange Crush

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09/18/2020 05:14 PM
No worries Ben - the last major test was Monday. Murphy over-slept.

CK - the bubble concept seems pretty standard. Everyone is using it. It is a major part of all the back to school plans here in Canada (different learning groups, different lunch groups to keep these groups/bubbles down to about 90 in a high school that hosts a couple 1000 kids). It's only been a week so too early to see how well it works.

The bubble concept has over the summer been majorly broken by youths. That is why our second wave right now here in BC is already 2x that of first wave. I am reading everywhere that cases are on rise. But because different age groups compared to first wave, hospitalizations are still only half that of first wave.

The key items are bubbles, keeping hospitalizations in check and being in the know as to origins of your cases through contact tracing and detailed testing. That latter part is key so you can step in when required. BC still can track upwards of 80-90% of our outbreaks, Ontario apparently lost the plot last week and was down to 50% (when that happens things become uncontrolled and you're potentially in trouble). We still have our #1 doc on the case here in BC, even though criticism on her has increased as she is still de-emphasizing masks (only for certain situations where one can't distance; predominantly indoors). Good on her for keeping strictly focused on science despite a lot of political and public pressures.
longslowdistance

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09/18/2020 11:04 PM
Agree with the posts that so far so good is very welcome news. As with the NBA, this model works. However CK: mean incubation is 6 days, but up to 12. No one in the peloton is out of the woods for a couple of weeks, counting the Champs and post Tour blowout party next Sunday night. Those douchebag "fans" who shouted point blank at riders a few days ago may not create illness in a rider for several more days. This is part of the curse of this pesky virus, everything is in slow motion.
longslowdistance

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09/18/2020 11:11 PM
PS: Just for fun: pics for tomorrow?
Will Rog have the radio on and do just enough to keep yellow, or storm to a stage win? The latter would be very Lance like and more fitting.
Curious if Sepp can motor on the flatter start. He could kick some derrière on the last bit.
And curious if Dumoulin, WVO and some other superdomestiques will choose to take the mellow route to their paychecks or chew off their leashes. And a sentimental note for bad luck king Pinot. Glad he is here for the ride in his back yard.
Orange Crush

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09/18/2020 11:23 PM
I don’t know about the others but Dumoulin intends to blaze it and gun for top 7 in overall if not a stage win. If I had to put money down it would be Roglic though.

Get the feeling that van Aert may be feeling a Paris sprint more than tomorrow but I could be wrong. And here’s to Carapaz keeping that Polca Dot.
longslowdistance

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09/18/2020 11:47 PM
Bennet is my pic for Paris. This is his year. Caleb may prove me wrong.
Orange Crush

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09/19/2020 12:31 AM
Caleb would be my pick. He’s faster. But Bennett has been more consistent and had the team to go for green.
Cosmic Kid

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09/19/2020 08:18 AM
Agreed on Caleb for tomorrow....
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/19/2020 10:10 AM
Did you see the brief image of the guy sitting in folding chair timing and texting? That was Zeeman who got booted. Haha.
Orange Crush

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09/19/2020 10:49 AM
CK Porte is now virtual on podium!
Orange Crush

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09/19/2020 10:51 AM
And Roglic shedding time. This is exciting.
Orange Crush

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09/19/2020 11:15 AM
Wow.
Cosmic Kid

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09/19/2020 11:19 AM
Me, watching the finish today.....



WTF did I just watch?!?! Holy schitt.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

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09/19/2020 11:20 AM
CK Porte is now virtual on podium!


I can’t believe he actually pulled it off!!
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
mondonico

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09/19/2020 11:24 AM
Unbelievable. Three of four classifications And only 21. He not only won he crushed everyone.
longslowdistance

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09/19/2020 11:26 AM
Unbelievable.
mondonico

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09/19/2020 11:27 AM
I guess you could say there is a new patron. How can you not respect that showing.
79pmooney

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09/19/2020 11:29 AM
Wow! Simply wow.
Orange Crush

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09/19/2020 12:01 PM
So Dumoulin and Pogacar were roughly on par at base of climb.Tom shed a bunch of time on climb not just to Pogacar but also to van Aert etc. Poor choice to stay on TT rig was definitely a factor in gap.

That tiny gear Roglic was spinning was also telling.
Cosmic Kid

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09/19/2020 12:39 PM
Poor choice to stay on TT rig was definitely a factor in gap.


Not necessarily....could have been a pacing issue just as easily. He was up on Wout substantially at the bottom of the climb, where Wout paced better...was behind at the bottom and went faster to take the lead by the line.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

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09/19/2020 01:01 PM
Roglic also confirmed he had a poorly fitting helmet we wore for first time. Really? I was wondering about that when I saw him ride across line.

Tom is wondering about mental aspect of Roglic getting splits. Dumoulin never wants to know them, to avoid it messing with his brain.

The devil is in details.
6ix

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09/19/2020 05:28 PM
Saw this on Instagram and it really made me question things:

"On September 20th 2017 almost 3 years to the date, Tom Dumoulin put together a 430 watt 44:41 minute time trial to win the world time trial championships ahead of Primoz Roglic who finished a minute behind, and ahead of that years Tour de France Champion and Olympic bronze medalist Chris Froome who came in 80 seconds off pace. Today, a more experienced Tom Dumoulin did 440 watts average to the base of the final climb, then 430 watts for the ascend where he lost over a minute to today's winner, Tadej Pogacar. With this in mind one might be able to understand WHY Tom Dumoulin said that he doesn’t understand how Pogacar did what he did today. Until today, Tadej Pogacar’s best performance in an ITT at this level was 11th on stage 10 of the Vuelta last year, where Roglic took the win. Yes, we all know that Pogacar marginally beat Roglic this year in the Slovanian ITT championships by 9 seconds. It’s important to note that what we’re looking at in Pogacar’s performance today isn’t just his best performance ever, it’s the best time trial performance in the history of the sport. "

And that, my dear friends, is incredibly suspect. This is AFTER 3 really hard weeks of racing. Plus, Pogacar is more of a climber than a super strong TT specialist like Cancellara was. I'd believe Cancellara if he averaged 450 watts during an hour record attempt, but not a skinny climber that still isn't finished maturing and growing stronger.
Orange Crush

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09/19/2020 06:22 PM
Interesting numbers 6ix. Definitely food for thought.

Toms numbers are curious though in that he is still building form and racing rhythm. I would have expected him to be below 2017 level. They are sending him to Vuelta to further hone his form. Also Watts is fine for first part of course where Pogacar and Tom were on par. But for climb watts per kg would rule I think. There are certainly questions to be asked but at same time the argumentation seems a bit short through curve and final sentence is not substantiated.
longslowdistance

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09/19/2020 08:58 PM
Repeat: Unbelievable.
That said, gotta admire some make Lance jealous level juice. Science marches on.
Orange Crush

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09/20/2020 12:45 PM
You called it LSD. Bennett.

Back to TT, I have seen reports that Pogacar broke Aru’s 2017 record up La Planche by between 2 and 17 seconds. This is far from a massive difference considering that Arus ride was a regular stage. Also reading that UAE came to TT course three times. They practiced the minute details down to bike change. This was a premeditated assassination.
79pmooney

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09/20/2020 12:48 PM
That felt different. I've gotten used to the formula of the final day procession being an ode to the Emperor, be that LA or the current Sky/Ineos or JV heir. An emperor whose ascension has been heralded for weeks.

And the end, the grand entry into Paris, the ratcheting of speed. That was according to script (except it took place on an uninhabited planet). A little weird having the green jersey on the wrong rider, but he did fulfill his obligation to win on the big stage, led out by courtiers who have been refining this regal entry for years.

And seriously, my hope (dream?) is that Pogacar's performance is real. That it stands the test of time and science as one of the great moments of a great race. He certainly turned a Tour that was a bit "ahnnn" (with more interest as to whether the race could even reach Paris without international scrutiny) to one I'm glad I followed every day.
79pmooney

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09/20/2020 01:13 PM
Thanks OC. I've only read hearsay so far, not his "numbers", nor I am up on what those numbers can be.

Funny, I read he did this with no power meter or computer. A man of my heart. Now, I'm guessing he had that stuff on the TT bike, just not the climb bike. If I were doing that TT, that's what I would do. And I'd be watching my numbers carefully to never go above a solid steady state until I swapped bikes.

(Years ago I rode a century over Lolo Pass, the old Oregon Trail wagon route over the Cascades. Wanted to be totally on my game for the Pass. Wore a monitor and kept my HR under 155 for the first several hills. Tedious! I let a lot of people go I could stay with easily. Rode the pass with a racer easily 15-20 years younger, just keeping to 165 the whole time. Had him pegged and left him the final mile and grade changes. Didn't look at the monitor again the rest of the day. My legs were the limiting factor. I passed a whole bunch of riders that left me hours before. At the dinner, that racer came up to me and thanked me for getting him over the pass! Wish that century was still happening. My favorite ever.)

I wonder if Roglic would have been better off getting no info on how he was doing re: Pogacar, especially over the first 30 km. Maybe come into the bottom of the climb 30 seconds slower.
longslowdistance

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09/20/2020 01:18 PM
Comparing a stage finish to the TT is interesting. 30k of TT effort should be a lot harder, but then again the teams often race to the bottom of the finishing climb in a regular stage.
Orange Crush

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09/20/2020 01:26 PM
Ben I thought the fact that he had no power data was interesting too. Obviously more fodder for conspiracy theorists. Wondering how this would work with bike swap. He would need two computers I’d think. You’re not going to drag it over.

A few years ago Tom indicated he trained with power but raced on feeling without data. Not sure if that’s still the case.
Orange Crush

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09/21/2020 10:54 AM
So Pogacar joins the ranks of Hinault and Merckx as first time winners.

In terms of jersey haul, back in 1969 Merckx took home yellow, points, mountain and combination. He also won combativity and his team won the team price. That must have been some boring one-sided affair, glad I missed it LOL.
eurochien

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09/21/2020 11:14 AM
Explain something to me... What does "first time winner" mean? Everyone who's ever won a TdF for the first time was a first time winner aren't they? or does this mean winning the TdF on their first participation?

As an aside, I'm glad a Campy-equipped, rim brake Colnago won the Tour, regardless of clean performance or not.
Orange Crush

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09/21/2020 11:16 AM
Posted By Franck A. on 09/21/2020 11:14 AM
Explain something to me... What does "first time winner" mean? Everyone who's ever won a TdF for the first time was a first time winner aren't they? or does this mean winning the TdF on their first participation?


First time participation.
79pmooney

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09/21/2020 12:06 PM
Posted By Orange Crush on 09/21/2020 10:54 AM
So Pogacar joins the ranks of Hinault and Merckx as first time winners.

In terms of jersey haul, back in 1969 Merckx took home yellow, points, mountain and combination. He also won combativity and his team won the team price. That must have been some boring one-sided affair, glad I missed it LOL.

And the young riders jersey except they hadn't made it yet.

"... Campy-equipped, rim brake Colnago won the Tour ..."  and no electronics except for what he was required to have!  Now, if he could have ditched his helmet waiting for the bike change.

Orange Crush

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09/21/2020 12:24 PM
This actually has a bit more detail. He had all the electronic gizmos on the TT bike but not on the bike used to tackle the climb. His stage 21 bike looks to be decked out with gizmos again. Probably just a matter of logistics of bike switch.

https://www.velonews.com/events/tour-de-france/the-winning-bike-of-the-tour-de-france-tadej-pogacars-colnago-v3rs/
Dale

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09/21/2020 01:11 PM

Posted By Franck A. on 09/21/2020 11:14 AM

I'm glad a Campy-equipped, rim brake Colnago won the Tour, regardless of clean performance or not.


Me too. Very happy that Ernesto got to see one of his bikes under the winner of the tour.
It's the one race that has eluded him
longslowdistance

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09/21/2020 01:13 PM
Eddy Merckx won a few while riding colnagos. . . . If you were just kidding my bad.
Orange Crush

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09/21/2020 01:25 PM
They were Colnagos but were they branded as such? I thought I read somewhere they were not. Before my time.
Dale

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09/21/2020 02:35 PM
Merckx bikes were built by Colnago but not branded as such.
longslowdistance

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09/22/2020 06:37 AM
They had eddy’s name but IIRC the colnago cut out lugs and distinctive fork crown Everyone just called them Colnagos.
longslowdistance

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09/22/2020 06:41 AM
His custom hour record bike was called “ the jewel of all Colnago’s creations”. Merckx had Mexican manufacturer Windsor stickers on that bike for a few thousand dollars and some good will from the Mexico City locals. IMO not a classy move. Everyone outside of Mexico and probably most in knew it was a Colnago.
longslowdistance

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09/23/2020 10:07 PM
Still digesting this entertaining but to me highly suspiciously fast TDF.
Discuss.
79pmooney

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09/23/2020 10:50 PM
lsd, it will be interesting to see if the next two tours have decreasing average speeds as the "juice" of the quarantine (and therefor no testing) wears off.

Seriously, was this Tour fast? High average speed? It did seem to me like they went race fast instead of the steady train of the super teams much of the time but that often makes for in fact, slower averages as the slowdowns often cost more than is gained in the fast stuff.
Orange Crush

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09/23/2020 11:59 PM
Steady pace with little tactics in my mind could make things faster. Cooler September temperatures could make it easier to ride fast. Completely different race calendar. There’s just too many variables to judge.
Cosmic Kid

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09/24/2020 09:23 AM
The pace was definitely fast....but there also weren't as many high mountains until the end. Stages that finished w/ descents also helped.

But there is no denying that they set records up some climbs, beating the times set by -7 and others of his era.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!


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