World Cup CX Thread - VeloNation - Cycling Forums, Bicycle Forums, Community Forums

Posts:4209

10/21/2021 11:04 AM
Lots of good racing so far...even if some of the big names have been absent on the men's side. Wome's racing has probably been more entertaining as the groups last longer....and Vos is still the GOAT. takes 2/3 of the US races. She was also the only rider I saw who still steps through when she dismounts....everyone else (men and women) swing their inside leg behind their outside leg. The Fayetteville race was an absolute mudfest...will be interesting to see how that course fares for Worlds in January if it is not muddy. Seems like it will be a very fast course. Dale, did you got to Fayetteville or Jingle Cross?

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Posts:4499

10/21/2021 11:20 AM
Both Vos and Brand were commenting how Fayetteville changed from superfast in training laps to a muddy slog fest during race. No comparison. Vos clearly benefiting coming off hot road race form but will be taking some time off now. There have been significant grumblings among Belgian racers about the costs and logistics associated with the American races (for most this is a net negative cost picture unless they are riding for a larger team footing the bill of travel) and the apparent lack of growth of public interest. In part this reflects that crossers have traditionally not been used to lots of travel unlike their road counterparts but on financial side some good points are being made. On flipside there is also lots of commenting about how everyone is enjoying the American scene. On mens side mostly just waiting for van Aert, VDP and Pidcock to step in to see how things really stack up. BTW - I think it was Vanthorenhout who showed that wiring from the Fayetteville mats had become entangled in his drive train. Didn't affect his race but could have. Something to look at.

Posts:4209

10/21/2021 12:14 PM
significant grumblings among Belgian racers about the costs and logistics associated with the American races asking them to be here for 4 weeks is definitely a challenge....while I am sure most of them have "race families" they stay with vs. hotels, just the logistics of moving from WI to AR to IA is tough. Seems like it would have made more sense to go from WI --> IA --> AR.

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eurochien

Posts:163

10/21/2021 06:40 PM
I'm wondering if CX growth has stalled for a while. I don't follow it as much as I used to for sure, but it also sounds like gravel has taken a bite out of CX? I dunno.

Posts:1767

10/21/2021 07:09 PM
I thought that was stupid when they announced the three races. Horrible logistics, and none of the places have decent airport connections, and as mentioned WI-IA-AR made a lot more sense. I heard several say they look forward to being back home. Well, duh... for many of them a race is a couple hours from their home or they can easily get there in their motorhome and not fuss with hotels, crazy travel, or catsup on their frites. Side note: while all this was going on I was hiking in Colorado and ran into Ellen Noble on some peak above Boulder. Had a brief but nice chat. Posted By Cosmic Kid on 10/21/2021 12:14 PM significant grumblings among Belgian racers about the costs and logistics associated with the American races asking them to be here for 4 weeks is definitely a challenge....while I am sure most of them have "race families" they stay with vs. hotels, just the logistics of moving from WI to AR to IA is tough. Seems like it would have made more sense to go from WI --> IA --> AR.

Posts:4209

10/22/2021 09:09 AM
not fuss with hotels, crazy travel, or catsup on their frites.

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Posts:1767

10/22/2021 08:06 PM
Hahaha... glad you caught that. Somewhere there's a video of Sven Nys working in the cafeteria at Trek and all he serves is frites with mayo.

Posts:4499

10/22/2021 09:53 PM
Haha I caught that too but don’t have talents to post memes. Proud to say the fam is 100% frites with mayo. Curious how long the tradition will live with the offspring. Of course frites w curry ketchup, mayo and raw onions (frites speciaal) is another way to go . Couple weekends ago we had a Belgian beer and Bitterballen party w some other couples, one Dutch one Belgian. All w Brit/Canuck wifes.

Posts:4209

10/25/2021 09:11 AM
Good races yesterday in Zonhoven....man that sand just sapped the energy from their legs. The men's race was especially good, I thought w/ Toon Aerts making a late attack after sliding out a few laps earlier.

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Posts:1767

10/25/2021 05:04 PM
OC can attest to the fact that Belgian sand is not like anything in the US, at least not that I've even seen. A very fine grain and deep. It's like hitting a bog. One of the guys I know raced Masters a couple times there and said when he trained specifically for Belgium his US results got worse but when it came to Worlds (with a last row call-up) he worked his way to the front and ended up 2nd or 3rd.

Posts:4499

10/25/2021 06:03 PM
Dale - I doubt you would encounter anything like that Belgian sand where you are. But I can attest that type of sand is abundant in the Bend, Oregon area. Ben and I put our faces in it a few times on Day 1 of the Oregon Trail Gravel Grinder (gravel? Hah!). Ben subsequently missed far more "fun" in deep sand sectors on Day 4. I stayed upright (mostly) but ultimately the sand killed the first iteration of my Diverge (sheered off top tube from too many slow motion spills those five days). I limped to finish on said broken frame, the bike making death sounds all the way those final 20 kms. I have no idea how the old Oregon Trail pioneers got their wagons through this vile stuff. Must have been hell.

Posts:4499

10/27/2021 02:45 PM
Sounds like VDP and Pidcock have confirmed their intent to partake in Lafayette Worlds but van Aert is still in doubt as it may interfere with his road racing goals. Ironically, Lafayette has been deemed relatively suitable to Wout's strengths (power) and less suitable to VDP (course is not very technical).

Posts:2881

11/04/2021 08:37 PM
How did the US cross center of gravity end up in Arkansas? I get how the Road Worlds came to Richmond, VA 6 years ago: Tour DuPont had a very successful history, and a few pro races later did OK, the course was good enough, even pretty good. All in all the 2015 Worlds was a success. But northern Euro mud fettish meets US redneck heartland? WTF? Please fill me in.

Posts:4499

11/05/2021 02:39 AM
https://www.fayettevilleflyer.com/2021/08/01/walton-foundation-adds-1-4-million-in-grant-funding-for-cyclocross-races-in-fayetteville/

Posts:4209

11/05/2021 06:40 AM
In addition, Walmart is now the title sponsor for the World Championships in January.

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Posts:3180

11/05/2021 11:15 AM
No comments here on redneck country 'cross racing. Just read the CyclingNews article on Blanka Kata Vas. 20 years old and maybe the next Marianne Vos. https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/blanka-kata-vas-multi-discipline-cycling-star-inspired-by-vos-and-ferrand-prevot/

Posts:1767

11/05/2021 12:38 PM
The millionaires and billionaires are pouring $$$$ into this part of the country. Walton grandsons in Arkansas, O'Reilly (auto parts stores and hospitality businesses), and another not made public yet. The latter two projects in SW MO; one 15 miles from my house and the newest one, which may be a membership model met/ downhill park, about 20 miles away. The city gave permission for a mbt trail around the main water supply lake. 20 minutes to the trailheads as well. When they're done it'll be over 30 miles of trails, most of which is well suited for new riders with minimal elevation gain and not very technical. There's about 15 miles completed and I'm heading there in an hour or so. Probably do out and back from the middle and end up with ~25 miles. Heady times, my friends, heady times. Road? I hardly knew ye.

Posts:4499

11/05/2021 04:39 PM
Posted By 79 pmooney on 11/05/2021 11:15 AM No comments here on redneck country 'cross racing. Just read the CyclingNews article on Blanka Kata Vas. 20 years old and maybe the next Marianne Vos. https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/blanka-kata-vas-multi-discipline-cycling-star-inspired-by-vos-and-ferrand-prevot/ Good to see how many different women have won races this year. It’s a diverse and competitive field.

Posts:2881

11/05/2021 06:17 PM
Great responses I summarize: OC: Money Talks CK: Big Daddy wants Dale: trickle down, too!

Posts:4499

11/14/2021 02:35 PM
Posted By 79 pmooney on 11/05/2021 11:15 AM No comments here on redneck country 'cross racing. Just read the CyclingNews article on Blanka Kata Vas. 20 years old and maybe the next Marianne Vos. https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/blanka-kata-vas-multi-discipline-cycling-star-inspired-by-vos-and-ferrand-prevot/ Looks like the orange have an up and coming star as well. Puck Pieterse 19 years old, 2nd in Tabor. Also w MTB pedigree.

Posts:3180

11/15/2021 11:36 PM
I had intimate acquaintances with a few Pucks in my years as hockey goal tender. But my dalliances were always with even younger ones. I wouldn't want to mess with a 19 yo. That'd be some pretty hard rubber. (And capitalizing the ones that leave scars is grammatically quite proper. If you don't believe me, feel free to take a few slapshots.)

Posts:4499

11/28/2021 01:58 PM
A Canadian doing well in the Euro mud. Hopefully more to come. https://cyclingmagazine.ca/cyclocross/maghalie-rochette-runner-up-in-muddy-besancon-france-round-of-the-world-cup/

Posts:4209

12/06/2021 11:55 AM
While not a World Cup CX race, Wout absolutely destroyed the Super Prestige race on Saturday....at one point, he was up ~2' over the main pack of rivals, which included all the other contenders from the races so far this year.....simply on a different level than everyone else on Saturday. And what a slopfest, too....that was a proper CX course with lots of technical sections and run-ups.

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Posts:4499

12/06/2021 12:20 PM
Adrie had predicted that Wout would destroy the field although the winning margin was almost twice what he predicted. Lots of mud and lots of running meant a course that was perfect for van Aert. The guy is one of the best runners out there and participated in a few running races during his break (incidentally Wout has seen Dumoulin run a 10k and he says it was scary fast). As Adrie put it, "the others" will have to rethink how they spend their summers and participate in higher end races to bridge the performance gap.

Posts:4209

12/06/2021 12:29 PM
No doubt it was a perfect course / conditions for Wout....but his winning move came from powering up one of the short, steep climbs vs. running like all the others did. From there, his running skills just let him pile on the time. Toon Aerts, another good "mudder", was with him for a bit until crashes put an end to his effort. Pidcock looked absolutely spent about 3/4 of the way through the race.....

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Posts:1767

12/06/2021 01:00 PM
That was just a beat down. Can't wait for him a MVdP to go head to head.

Posts:4499

12/06/2021 01:20 PM
I think we will see a gradual build by Pidcock and MVDP towards worlds. Suspect van Aert will better both in December. MVDP reportedly has been taking things real easy to date although the team has a Spain training camp coming up.

Posts:4499

12/06/2021 02:22 PM
Could have saved some typing. They ended up translating it: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/adrie-van-der-poel-predicted-van-aerts-successful-cyclo-cross-debut-after-spying-on-his-strava-data/

Posts:2881

12/06/2021 08:01 PM
I was deep into alpine skiing a few decades ago. The full hearted decried "wicket robots" who skied technically perfectly but had no heart. Who can love a robot? Hello pro cycling.

Posts:4499

12/06/2021 08:25 PM
Lots of heart in pro cycling last number of years. And there’s always been heart in spring classics. Just the stage races turned into chess on wheels. Then again always liked slalom better than downhill or super G which seem pretty boring. Better like rally cross than formula 1 etc. Tomba la Bomba!

Posts:1767

12/07/2021 08:24 AM
Stage racing has devolved into an accountants game- scripted, calculated, generally dull until they throw in a day where the stage is short and the attacks start at the gun and it becomes a full on knife fight.

Posts:2881

12/07/2021 10:52 PM
OC is correct, my rant was focused on the grand tours. Small caps, as that is mostly what they are now, mostly. So if I were emperor I would ban race radios beyond warnings of road hazards and would surely ban power meters. In other words, I would ban robots.

Posts:4209

12/26/2021 01:05 PM
Nice win by Wout today….hopefully gives him a mental boost moving forward, even if MVP is still not at full speed yet. He completely dominated the race. Also a great ride by Toon Aerts to finish on the podium. Went from the start and took the race to both Wout and MVP.

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Posts:4499

12/28/2021 11:43 AM
Doubt we’ll see VDP in another cross this year. There was an article on his injury history the other day. Seems he’s had back issues since his youth, in fact his junior road worlds title seems to have come straight after a back injury recovery. Best scenario seems to be recovering in time for spring classics. Give how chronic this is he’ll likely have to start managing his objectives more carefully.

Posts:1767

12/28/2021 04:12 PM
^ I expect to see WvA in Fayetteville and for him to mop the field. Even if MVdP shows up... which is at this point doubtful, I can't see him threatening the top podium step. 2nd would be a good day for him given the current circumstances but as OC opines, he ought to be more selective in what he chooses to race. To my surprise when I told my wife of my plans to watch, she said she wants to go as well. Hotels are stupid expensive that week but we've thrown money at dumber things. Probably get in some hiking in the mornings before the races. Loads of cool hikes in that area so it's going to be a fun weekend.

Posts:4209

12/31/2021 07:01 AM
Dale, I got 2 rooms in Bentonville for cheap. Only 40 min away and great riding (as you know) Undecided if I will go given the current state of the world.

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Posts:1767

12/31/2021 07:24 AM
I was in that part of AR yesterday and drove to the venue. No parking on site, they'll run shuttle buses. We've booked a cabin at Devils Den State Park about 40 minutes south of Fayetteville with hiking right outside the cabin's door. Cool place built in the 1930's by the CCC. They used to have a stage race there with a brutal uphill TT. Steve Tilford had one of his many crashes there- he finished his warmup then descending somehow went down. He posted his GPS file where he went from 40 to zero in short order. You've got my email? Keep me posted on your plans.

Posts:4209

12/31/2021 01:03 PM
You've got my email? Keep me posted on your plans Will do!!!

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Posts:4499

12/31/2021 01:12 PM
Posted By Dale Dale on 12/31/2021 07:24 AM We've booked a cabin at Devils Den State Park about 40 minutes south of Fayetteville with hiking right outside the cabin's door. This better be with a shouldered bike.

Posts:1767

12/31/2021 02:20 PM
bwahaha... pass, my wife already thinks I'm nuts. And todays public service announcement. When getting on a mountain bike do not use the cyclocross flying leap technique, the saddle-to-ground height is not the same. I was fooling around in the parking lot and about injured myself trying to look cool.

Posts:4209

01/03/2022 11:47 AM
Nice win for Pidcock in Hulst, even if it was slightly assisted by Wout's drivetrain mechanical. brandt continues to dominate the women's field....really impressive. That was a super-technical course and fun to watch.

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Posts:1767

01/03/2022 01:55 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 01/03/2022 11:47 AM brandt continues to dominate the women's field....really impressive. You see what Brandt said about Alvarado being held up by a lapped rider? As someone who's been lapped occasionally I figure it's my job to get the heck out of the way and not factor in on the finish. Poor form for the US rider to not just move hard left to give a clear line for Alvarado. Looks like she held up Brandt a bit as well but really messed up Alvarado. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/brand-criticises-uci-over-lapped-rider-rules/

Posts:4209

01/03/2022 02:10 PM
Poor form for the US rider to not just move hard left to give a clear line for Alvarado. Absolutely....how hard is it to understand that when the leaders are even close to you, you get the hell out of the way? Sucked for Alvarado.

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Posts:1767

01/03/2022 02:33 PM
Speaking of getting lapped... Hermann, MO a bunch of years ago at Dogfish Cross they lumped all the masters in to one field with staggered starts. 40's go, 50's go, 60's go all with a 30 or 45 second gap between. I've already spotted a full minute or more to my team mate who kills the 40+ field not to mention the 50's and 60's and in a 45 minute race, sure enough and I look back here he comes. Problem is I'm 300 meters from the finish and don't want to do another lap so I ease up. He's got a monster gap on 2nd so HE lets up, laughing to himself that he's not going to lap me so I have to keep going. I see what's going on and let up more. We're now both about track standing and I say, "Heck with that," stomp the pedals, sprint to the finish line, and post up. Everyone there, except the officials and my team mate, think I just won... photos of me, people yelling, etc. The official rolled his eyes, shook his head, laughed a little, and waved me off the course. My teammate rolled through a few seconds later laughing at my idiot move. He did point out his winnings to my 10th place, or whatever it was with no payout.

Posts:4499

01/03/2022 06:15 PM
As Brand (nor Brandt) said it’s not about the specific rider, it happens all the time. I could see moving out of the way being tricky on technical courses. It’s about how race officials and rules deal with lapped riders. Apparently Brand offered suggestions last year but no response.

Posts:4209

01/03/2022 09:38 PM
Great story, Dale!

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Posts:4499

01/05/2022 09:39 AM
that’s funny Dale. No VDP and no van Aert at worlds this year.

Posts:4209

01/05/2022 09:47 AM
Did Wout confirm that? haven't seen that yet.... Would be a big mnistake, IMO, especially since MVP is definitely out now....golden opportunity to grab the rainbow jersey. But if if his concern is COVID related, I would totally understand that. ETA - Just saw Wout has confirmed no Worlds. Bummer. Looks like it may be Pidcock's for the taking. https://cyclingtips.com/2022/01/wout-van-aert-wont-ride-cyclocross-world-championships/

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Posts:4499

01/05/2022 10:02 AM
Confirmed it today. Belgian Champs will be his final race then he’s focusing on goals on road. NM didn’t read all the way down, looks like it was translated and you found it. On a good day and suitable course it could be Pidcock’s to loose but he’s beatable by some of the Belgians.

Posts:4209

01/05/2022 11:35 AM
On a good day and suitable course it could be Pidcock’s to loose but he’s beatable by some of the Belgians. Conditions will definitely play a big role....if it is dry and fast, team tactics could very well come into play on that course. If it is wet & sloppy like the WC race in October, it definitely favors Pidcock.

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Posts:4499

01/05/2022 12:01 PM
I thought Pidcock faired poorly on a recent excessively muddy race (being a lightweight) but maybe I'm mistaken. I'd think what favors him is technical and/or climbing. What I read about Fayetteville is that irrespective of fast versus sloppy the course might have favored van Aert over MVDP if they had attended as it isn't particularly technical and more of a power course.

Posts:4209

01/05/2022 12:12 PM
Fair point...I was referring more to wet & sloppy equating to more running vs. riding through on pure power. For the WC race, Hermans isn't exactly a big numbers guy, but he essentially ran away from the field. But I wouldn't under-estimate Pidcock's power, either....remember he came within a mm of beating Wout at Amstel in the sprint!

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Posts:1767

01/05/2022 03:37 PM
World Champions jersey this year --> *******

Posts:4209

01/05/2022 03:53 PM
BTW....I am officially not going down to CX Worlds, Dale. Too risky with Mrs. CK's compromised immune system right now. And w/o Wout and MVP, the race has lost a bit of its appeal.

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Posts:1767

01/05/2022 04:59 PM
Figured that might be the case, CK. If I didn't live so close and have other stuff to do there that weekend I'd skip it as well. My youngest daughter was at the Rose Bowl with her soon-to-be-husband and his family... diagnosed with Covid this morning. The whole group has been vaccinated but most are now showing symptoms. Lemme see... 100,000 people crammed into a stadium where everyone is screaming at the top of their lungs, yeah, nothing bad could come of that.

Posts:4209

01/05/2022 06:09 PM
Best wishes for a speedy recovery for all!

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Posts:1767

01/27/2022 09:41 AM
Brook Watts on his roll as event-services director and course consultant, and subsequent firing from that roll over his statements on Arkansas's recently passed legislation. Interesting that he was at odds with the trail builder and others over the course and his efforts to not have it dumbed down. He only partially succeeded, banked corners instead of off-camber turns, wide open and not very technical. Sure, it'll be a hard race but won't favor true cx skilled riders. My experience with Arkansas CX has been horrible... I've raced there half dozen times and you can't get them to purge the MBT mentality out of their course layouts. Most are not USAC so they get to throw out the regulations and make up what they want-- 4' between fences, 1/2 mile laps, curb transitions without ramps so you have to bunny hop street crossings. When I complained to a buddy about flatting a tubular last fall on one of many sharp rocks jutting up he told me, "Shut up, you knew it was Arkansas when you signed up. You got what you deserved." True dat. BTW, the races are not by age or category, they're by time! Want to race 15 minutes? There's a category for that. 45? Yup, got that too. Brook put on two races in AR that were legit but the locals can't grasp CX. https://www.velonews.com/culture/commentary-how-i-brought-the-worlds-to-fayetteville-and-why-i-wont-be-there/?fbclid=IwAR2ZtjzbU_hOfIbt3CrsesPj0Zp8iBO0ajjvD_vhT-T05bKYrQFrGtx0ljk

Posts:4499

01/27/2022 11:27 AM
Sounds like the conditions are hard pack and it will be fast races. Reads like the course is an attempt at a bit of a mix of everything from various European races. Not a fan of that approach. You're in Arkansas, showcase it, be original. Even if that slashes Dale's tires, haha. As long as it remains CX and not MTB.

Posts:4499

01/28/2022 09:44 AM
The incredible story of Costa Rica’s entrant who has links to Portland. Came across it in Sporza today this is best English version I could find https://bikeportland.org/2021/12/02/podcast-tragedy-and-triumph-the-story-of-felipe-nystrom-341744 Full transcript to get the entire story of a peace corps mom, native dad that he never knew, abuse, parties drugs 7 suïcide attempts and eventually a move to US and cycling https://bikeportland.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Felipe-Nystrom-Interview-Transcript.pdf

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01/28/2022 11:53 AM
Mixed Relay races (which just a dumb concept, IMO, but I digress, start shortly.....at least it is live bike racing.

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Posts:4209

01/28/2022 12:37 PM
7 racers on the course for the Mixed Relay race....kind of a dud.

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Posts:1767

01/28/2022 12:38 PM
The mixed race would have been a clown show regardless. Who thought up that idea, ABC Sports?

Posts:4209

01/28/2022 12:54 PM
It's been a "thing" in a number of different sports lately....the one that immediately springs to mind is triathlon, but they did a mixed relay TTT last year at Worlds. Also done in biathlon, etc.

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Posts:4209

01/28/2022 01:04 PM
And the first Mixed Relay race is won by the CX powerhouse nation of.....checks notes.....Italy. 🥴🥴🥴

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Posts:4499

01/28/2022 01:07 PM
Maybe Italy has better depth on women's side than Belgium haha. And to consider Italy had to leave half their team home. Didn't watch it but understand the Orange passed up on the mixed relay.

Posts:4209

01/28/2022 01:21 PM
Can confirm there were no orange jerseys racing.....

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Posts:1767

01/28/2022 01:28 PM
If you've got ostensibly the biggest race of your life in a day or two why would you jump into a gimmicky event? Reminds me of the non-championship 40+ race the day before nationals.... 50% of the field would do a couple off laps then pull out. All it was good for was a warm up and to see the course at race pace for a bit, results were of zero consequence.

Posts:4209

01/28/2022 01:50 PM
If you've got ostensibly the biggest race of your life in a day or two why would you jump into a gimmicky event? No arguments from me....especially since there is no actual jersey on the line. I mean they only had to do one lap, so it should have no impact on their upcoming races, but an untimely crash, etc. could be devastating.

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Posts:4499

01/28/2022 01:52 PM
For Belgians yes, they got bigger fish to fry. For the likes of Italy and US a rare opportunity to score a medal. So it works from that perspective at giving the smaller countries something to gun for. Yes you’re a smaller country even though your still bigly haha.

Posts:1767

01/28/2022 02:39 PM
My wife and I head down after she gets off work. I said the best race will be the Women's Elite, it'll be a sea of Orange at the front, the question is who stands on the top step. Couple of wild cards in that race- Vas who looked pretty good a week or so ago, and Cant who hasn't had a strong year but still could be in the mix. We're not CX bigly, we're not even cx mediumly. Be fun to watch a few of the women I know- Nuess, Mani (who I've got to pit for a couple times).

Posts:4209

01/28/2022 02:41 PM
For the likes of Italy and US a rare opportunity to score a medal. That was clearly the goal for the US team...Honsinger did a great job to give them a chance, but the last man couldn't quite close the deal.

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Posts:4209

01/29/2022 02:20 PM
Belgians sweep the podium in the Mens U23 race….pretty impressive.

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Posts:4209

01/29/2022 03:38 PM
THE GOAT!!!!!

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Posts:4499

01/29/2022 04:20 PM
Mind games between Vos and Brand. Since they couldn’t shake each other the outcome was inevitable. Decently watchable not a very technical course. What would have made it better would be Pieterse and van Empel present but those two will battle tomorrow. 8th title with previous one being 8 years ago!

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01/29/2022 04:32 PM
Still can’t believe there isn’t a single barrier on that course…basically a grass crit, except for the stairs.

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Posts:3180

01/29/2022 06:53 PM
CK, like you, I'm dumbfounded. Alabama. Politically correct. No barriers to riders of any race, gender or ethnicity. And serious on the race - didn't watch it; just read the CN review later. Brand needed to shed Vos. A commenter on the CN review said that it would have been a better race had Brand not towed Vos for 3 laps. Read that and thought "but this is bike racing, you have to shed those who can outsprint you". Brand didn't. Yes, that course sounds like almost unpaved road fast. Brand did open a gap when she took off w/ three to go but Vos closed it running the stairs! Only CX feature and it might have kept Brand from winning.

Posts:4499

01/29/2022 07:19 PM
Wait they moved the race to Alabama?! I thought it was the other politically incorrect A state. Yes, Brand needs to shed competition. That’s how she wins. Didn’t work on this course. Maybe if it had been muddy.

Posts:3180

01/29/2022 08:26 PM
Posted By Orange Crush on 01/29/2022 07:19 PM Wait they moved the race to Alabama?! I thought it was the other politically incorrect A state. Yes, Brand needs to shed competition. That’s how she wins. Didn’t work on this course. Maybe if it had been muddy. That would be a long drive for Dale! (Non of the A states are all that PC.)

Posts:4209

01/29/2022 08:35 PM
Maybe if it had been muddy. Yeah, the course raced completely differently in November for the WC race.

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01/29/2022 09:45 PM
Live and on the scene, the course…. You can’t get them to shed mbt from cx. Several of the turns are banked. Banked turns in CX, we’ve jumped the shark. Hard course? Yup. Technical? Nope The Vos - Brand battle was wonderful to watch. They made it sound like Vos never took a turn at the front but that wasn’t the case. Couple of times she put in a dig to gap Brand but either Brand pulled her back or Vos let off on the gas, it looked more the former. Harvey an Irish U-23 guy rolled a tire before the stairs and came running past with the bike shouldered and a pink latex tube sticking out the back tire. He got as loud of cheers as anyone else, in fact the entire side started chanting IRELAND IRELAND IRELAND! It was nice to see everyone getting encouragement. A Canadian went past and it was CANADA CANADA CANADA! The spectators we all well behaved as far as I saw, happy to be there and thanking Belgian, Dutch, Irish, and anyone else obviously not from the US for coming here. Several of the exhibitors in the expo area with stickers supporting gay rights, LGBTQ stickers, etc. as an “Up yours, Arkansas legislature” message. The parking was 4 miles away. Shuttle busses were too few. We walked back rather than wait for a bus. Someone messaged me that it took her over two hours to get to her car. Unacceptable.

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01/30/2022 08:28 AM
Several of the exhibitors in the expo area with stickers supporting gay rights, LGBTQ stickers, etc. as an “Up yours, Arkansas legislature” message. Good to hear. The parking was 4 miles away. Shuttle busses were too few Someone on another forum said they were parking at a Walmart / Lowes that was only ~15 min walk. Might want to check into that today as an option.

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01/30/2022 09:31 AM
Thanks Dale for the real story. Good to hear that Vos wasn't sandbagging. Sounds like she was using her abilities to advantage. She's not a diesel and she's not going to out diesel Brand. But Vos in a US criterium with its dozens of accelerations? She'd do just fine! Banked corners? Lessons from stock cars. If you aren't going insanely fast, you aren't racing.

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01/30/2022 10:50 AM
Nys ended up having to apologize for his sideline commentary during race yesterday. He’s Brand’s coach. Some of those comments would not have been misplaced in the Alabama ehr Arkansas legislature.

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01/30/2022 11:47 AM
Awesome three way battle in junior race.

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01/30/2022 02:16 PM
Very entertaining U23 women race even though it was strictly an orange battle.

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01/30/2022 09:21 PM
Pidcock dominated as expected. So many Belgians lined up so little result to show for it.

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01/30/2022 09:56 PM
The first half of the race Tom was doing a great job of marking the Belgians, but he needed to go because he was risking getting worked over…..best defense is a good offense and he proved that today in spades. It was lights out when he went….super impressive and the best victory salute outside if Flecha.

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01/30/2022 10:55 PM
BTW, shout-out to the fan on the climb with the “Protect Trans Kids” signs. Well done, whoever you were.

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01/31/2022 10:33 PM
Post-race wrap-up The U-23 Dutch women had the team time trial down pat! They were a joy to watch. My wife and I were at the top of the climb that was not quite mid-lap. While we couldn’t see the lap counter, Jumbotron, or hear the announcer it was evident it was last lap by the way they attacked on the way up. That and the junior men were the best races of the weekend. We went to the official merchandise booth before the first race on Sunday. In spite of the WalMart logo on the shirt I wanted one of the t-shirts. They were out of Small, Medium, and Large, the only thing left were XL and XXL’s. I told the guy, “Well someone in purchasing certainly underestimated the demand.” To my embarrassment he said, “Yeah, that would be me.” They really had a poor selection even if they had everything in stock. Four or five tee’s, UCI world champ jersey (anyone buying one of those should be kicked in the shin… hard) and a hat or two. It was the same as it was at Louisville. If the US every gets the WC again I’m bidding on the merchandise booth. I finally solidified what I thought of the course—too contrived. It was like being in Las Vegas at the Venetian Hotel. Trying to replicate a classic and it came off as trying too hard. The cobblestone section was 40 or 50’ of large flat stones you could have ridden a skateboard over. The stairs were just there in the middle of nowhere, just built there to be there. Plenty of climbing, a tough course, but not technical. If it rained it would have been a greasy, unridable mess. The courses at Jingle Cross and Trek CXC are better- more technical and build into the landscape, not a landscape built to make a course. We parked at WalMart and skipped the remote parking and four mile walk or waiting for a shuttle. An easy walk of about a mile. Two racers dismounted on the right side of the bike. Looked pretty cool to see them dismount at the same time someone was doing the mirror image next to them. Two U23 women had a bottle cage and bottle. A US rider near the back on an aluminum bike, and Puck Pieterse. I explained to my wife that a field of 40 people are not the top 40 in the world, it’s like the Olympics were each country gets so many slots (how that’s determined is a mystery to me) so a country like Belgium or the Netherlands might have ten of the top riders they only get to take six. Then you get Israel and Costa Rica who get to send someone to represent only to have them get shellacked (Alvarado notwithstanding, had she been there). A Irish kid came running past, heading for the stairs with his bike on his shoulder, tire off the back wheel, pink tube flapping. Loads of speculation going on within earshot. “Look, his rim strip is off.” “I thought they were all on tubeless?” “Listen up you clowns, he rolled a tire and that’s a latex tube.” I only thought the first part but did say the rest. At another spot a couple of 20-something girls who had zero clue were standing next to my wife and I. Everyone was hollering at all the riders and they started in as well. “Is that the leader?” “Nope, last place.” “Seriously? Won’t they think we’re making fun of them?” “Nope, everyone here is worth cheering for.” They seemed to have fun joining in on the atmosphere, and learning a bit about CX. The speed the pro men went up the stairs was insane! There was short section to remount and pedal before the plunge down (20% grade). While the juniors rode to the edge and dropped off, the pro men and women rode hard and hit the drop off still stomping the pedals. My wife said she’d like to see a typical Cat 2 or 3 on the course at the same time to get a perspective of the difference. I’ll see if I can run the different race videos to time the stair section to show where Vos, the lead U-23’s and juniors would be when Pidcock hit the start of the decent. We were at the top of the climb during four or five of the men’s, it was like the running of the bulls the first few laps with a lead group shoulder to shoulder flying up the climb! Speaking of flying, both days before the elite race someone put on an aerobatic show. Lots of smoke and razor-sharp execution of a bunch of patterns. Fun to watch. Drove home listening to the KC Chief lose in overtime. Got to the house at 6:10 and by 6:30 was on the road to Minneapolis, 8 hours away for a Monday morning nine o’clock product review and presentation. I might or might not have been at my sharpest for that meeting. That’s all for now

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01/31/2022 11:59 PM
Posted By Dale Dale on 01/31/2022 10:33 PM Post-race wrap-up The U-23 Dutch women had the team time trial down pat! They were a joy to watch. That and the junior men were the best races of the weekend. I finally solidified what I thought of the course—too contrived. The speed the pro men went up the stairs was insane! Yup x4. Thanks for report.

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02/01/2022 09:16 AM
Good recap, dale....thanks for the insights!! And the guy who was holding up the sign was Keith Garrison.....you can send him props on the twitters at @keithgarrisonnn

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02/01/2022 09:23 AM
I banned Twitter years ago. No regrets.

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02/04/2022 09:06 AM
Not sure if my math is right but here's the lap times for each of the categories World Championship CX times Category # of laps Total time Lap time Men (9 laps) 60:36 6:44 U23 M (7 laps) 49:21 7:03 Jr Men (6 laps) 43:11 7:12 U23 W (6 laps) 46:27 7:45 Women (7 laps) 55:00 7:51 Jr Wom (5 laps) 41:16 8:15 I figured the pro women would have been faster than the junior men. Due to race dynamics and changing course conditions lap times don't tell the whole story but the conditions didn't change much all weekend and other then Vos and Brand playing cat-and-mouse on the last lap or so there wasn't a race that wasn't mostly full gas.

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02/04/2022 10:00 AM
I checked your math, Dale. Good work. (Excel geek here. I used to calculate fishing vessel stability. Elaborate spreadsheets were a huge labor saver. And once debugged, they didn't misread numbers or lose their place in the table.)

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02/04/2022 10:05 AM
Thanks Ben. Guess I shouldn’t be surprised the U23 women had faster lap times than the pro women, those three Dutch U23’s were TTT’ing it like crazy the whole race. Once off the front Vos and Brand were just racing each other which I know contradicts my previous statement.

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02/04/2022 10:49 AM
Ben - I'm afraid by now for the serious calculators, Excel is a major no no. My team and many others codes everything in R for reproducable, repeatable results. It comes with a huge library of standard calculations and graphing options. And didn't they miss a whole bunch of Covid cases in Britain at start of pandemic because Excel allows only for so many rows (entries)? Here's maybe a quick intro into key differences if you're interested: https://www.gapintelligence.com/blog/understanding-r-programming-over-excel-for-data-analysis/ But yes Dale, perceptually it looks correct. The Vos/Brand battle was tactical. Pro cycling stats lists the mens race at 27.723 km/h and women at 23.673 km/h so their speed was 85% of men, or their lap times should be 1/0.85 = 117% of men so your math seems to add up. https://cx.procyclingstats.com/

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02/04/2022 11:23 AM
OC, I have no desire to learn another program! Excel works very well for the thousands or less items I'm likely to need to deal with. Lives aren't at stake. I started my spreadsheet journey two programs before Excel. Forget the names. One might have been VP something. I still have Excel programs that I wrote in the former. Before that, it was paper and pencil spread sheets. The weight analysis of one fishing vessel was 17 11x17 sheets. Did that and it was "time to write a program!"

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02/04/2022 11:32 AM
Posted By 79 pmooney on 02/04/2022 11:23 AM OC, I have no desire to learn another program! Neither have I. I used to program in Fortran, then C, first on Unix machines then PCs as they became more powerfull. Lots of matrix equations and tens of thousands lines of code. Now I have my team do the work in R and I just check whether it makes sense. If not I use my "WTF!" review stamp. I have a manual one that uses red ink but a smart colleague also made an automated WTF as a ShinyApp. Unfortunately she was prevented from uploading this App to the public library based on language. Maybe we'll try the dark web. BTW, aren't "lifes at stake" in vessel stability calculations?

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02/04/2022 12:36 PM
Posted By Orange Crush on 02/04/2022 11:32 AM Posted By 79 pmooney on 02/04/2022 11:23 AM OC, I have no desire to learn another program! Neither have I. I used to program in Fortran, then C, first on Unix machines then PCs as they became more powerfull. Lots of matrix equations and tens of thousands lines of code. Now I have my team do the work in R and I just check whether it makes sense. If not I use my "WTF!" review stamp. I have a manual one that uses red ink but a smart colleague also made an automated WTF as a ShinyApp. Unfortunately she was prevented from uploading this App to the public library based on language. Maybe we'll try the dark web. BTW, aren't "lifes at stake" in vessel stability calculations? When I worked at Marco in Seattle, I was the guy who was both delegated to and embraced doing crap boat stability. There the issue was how many crab pots could you load on deck and take out to the grounds. The more pots, the better the profit for that year's crabbing (a very short window of time before the season was closed for another year). Too many pots and the weather turns? Capsize time. A sad inch of news column in the Seattle paper. I was doing this after the stability regulations had just changed to incorporate the effect of a sudden blast of wind from the side. Before it was all based on the static stability of the vessel; all stuff you could measure at the dock. This new calc used both the measured and calculated numbers and some crude assumptions thrown in because enough data was out there to show the end result worked well. Boats that passed regularly came home. Boats that were lost often didn't. (There are mistakes you can make running crab boats that wil sink even the most seaworthy. Plus ice - I ran calcs assuming a large amount of ice frozen high on the crab pot netting but nature doesn't always stop at the numbers set by the regulatory bodies.) Now, further complicating all this is the level of fuel and water in the various tanks. These can have a huge affect on stability. The gift to me was the locally written commercial stability software. The vessel would be modeled in as a 3-d shape. Tanks located inside with their 3-d shapes. The weight and center of gravity (CG) of the vessel and all permanently attached stuff is entered. Then, all the changeable weights, ie each 600-800 pound crabpot and their CGs. Last, the program is told the percentages full of each tank. Program then tips the vessel (say 30 degrees), calculates where the tank liquids would settle to, adjust the fore and aft trim of the vessel to meet the changed CG location, recalculate the tanks, repeat the trim and so on until "good enough" and calculate the stability for that degree of tip. Repeat at the next angle. (That program was/is amazing. Floats the boat like a toy boat a kid held in the bathtub, then let go. Boat oscillates back and forth, gradually settling in, just like real life.) This has to be done at each tank fill condition so a lot of cases! I would then harvest the key numbers for each condition and enter them into the Excel sheet I created to calculate "Severe Wind and Roll". See if it passed. If no, remove a few pots and repeat. If yes and by more than a small amount, add some. ($$ in the owner's pocket.) Finally make easy to read charts that show allowable pots with fuel usage, both for non-icing conditions and icing. And yes, this directly affects both the owner's and crew's annual income and the likelihood of them staying out of the news. (A poorly done report just gets ignored by the skippers when they know a condition is presented as safe when they know it isn't or they are told that something they've been doing for years isn't. Good reports too get ignored. Sometimes those boats make the news. To my knowledge, the skippers with my reports retired.)

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02/04/2022 01:14 PM
Fortran! I learned that in school. At Marco, I wrote the Severe Wind and Roll program to read off a table of inputs including a list of crabpots. It would run the numbers for that case and output to both a running list of cases and append the results to the bottom of the input file. Very useful for hit or miss work. If I passed my goal I could look at the long list to see the inputs that worked better. Years later, I removed the calcs, wrote new ones, altered the inputs to bike geometry numbers and outputs to required stem lengths and heights to get proper fit. Didn't take long to see that there were no ti frames out there with better than a "B" fit! Hence the TiCycles. I love that, with a current compiler, I can run ancient Fortran programs and they work just fine. Just the 15 minute calc time gets reduced to a billionth of a second.

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02/04/2022 01:53 PM
My freshman year in college, I had to take Assembler and Fortran. Assembler was (at the time) about as close as you could get to programing in binary. There was a reason I switched to PoliSci / History.

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Posts:1767

02/04/2022 02:14 PM
HA! I've been in the boat business all my life and saw what Ben wrote which went totally over my head. All I've been involved with is from the mechanic side and later in sales. As I tell my wife who is in surgery everyday administering anesthesia, "If I screw up somebody gets the wrong color boat, if you mess up somebody doesn't wake up." Glad I deal with simple stuff.

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02/04/2022 02:53 PM
My first thought in reading Ben's post was whether it allowed for sufficient variables in the analyses. So I read it a couple times. Then again, my line of work involves finding errors or omissions in complex calculations and assessment so we don't get taken to task by regulators etc. I.e. making our products (reports) bulletproof to scrutiny. Ben - it may interest that my father designed (or at least was responsible for major components of design) of an LNG carrier for indoor waters. Still remember getting a tour of the ship when it was being baptized. He also designed (and for a large part built) the house I grew up in and designed entire factory lines. I inherited none of those skills other than having a good head for complex analyses.

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02/04/2022 04:02 PM
OC, indoor waters? Do you mean inland waters, ie rivers and lakes? Freshman naval architecture at U of Michigan we studied the differences between ocean waves, weather and ships vs lake waves, weather and ships. (The Great Lakes being why Michigan has the department to start with.) The Great Lake carriers were designed and built to much lower standards of strength and stability because the waves are so much smaller. Except Lake Superior - a small freshwater ocean. And every once in a while, it claims a ship that would be just fine on the other 4 lakes. In that course, we learned that the most risky run of the year was the last of the fall by the iron ore carriers running from Duluth, MN to the steel mills of say Cleveland, OH. Over the summer the big, near full width hatch covers over the ore holds had been picked up by crane and roughly set down so many times they were warped and now poor fits. Summer? Who cares. But in the ocean storm conditions that can well be seen on Lake Superior in late November, the constantly flooded deck now sees water leaking down in real quantities into the ore holds. Water in amongst the very heavy iron ore is very hard to monitor or remove. Those ships were single bottom. Cheaper to build, lighter, could carry more tons of cargo. But you cannot drain water if there is no lower place for it to go. So, storm hits. Ship just keeps getting heavier and heavier. (And less stable because every time it rolls, that water sloshes to the lowest place; the low side - exactly where you don't want it.) Heavier ship, sinks lower in the water and more water sloshes the deck and finds its way below. Eventually the ship capsizes or simply just slides under, usually with full crew. We studied this in 1971. 4 years later, Gorden Lightfoot wrote a song about an ore carrier that did just that. He was scoffed at the time but the later dives to the wreck confirmed he got it right. (The Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald)

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02/04/2022 04:19 PM
Haha, yes inland of course. Mostly on major rivers but also Ijselmeer (used to be marine but is now permanently separated from North Sea) and some are rated to chug along the North Sea coast. Always surprised to see how deep these inland carriers run when they're fully loaded. And yes, when the Ijselmeer gets choppy some tend to go under. I grew up near where one of major canals enters one of major rivers, as kids we always spend a lot of time at the locks and harbour.

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02/14/2022 04:53 PM
Flanders Classics produced some pretty amazing drone footage of Lucinda Brand. Closeup view of dynamics of tackling a CX course at speed. Drone had a hard time keeping up. https://cyclingtips.com/2022/02/immersive-new-on-course-drone-footage-banned-by-uci/ Of course UCI took it down LOL. Shame, although had it been a close race with multiple riders up front I can see the safety risk.

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02/15/2022 09:18 AM
I actually can't blame the UCI for stopping this.....the drone was flying low and basically on the course. If the pilot clipped a fence or railing or anything else, the drone could have landed on the course, creating a dangerous obstacle. And let's not forget the drone from a few years ago at the Winter Olympics that almost fell on a skier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeviAWB0i4Y

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02/15/2022 03:14 PM
Breast cancer drug - WTF?! https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/toon-aerts-asserts-innocence-after-banned-drug-found-in-doping-test/

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02/15/2022 08:39 PM
A four letter word slipped out just now.... man, I hate to see that.

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02/16/2022 09:17 AM
Breast cancer drug Oh, FFS..... "I am currently in the dark as to how this could have come about. The product 'Letrozole Metabolite' was found in my urine sample. A product that I had never heard of until yesterday and do not know how it got into my body." Absolutely amazing how these drug tests only manage to catch innocent people and never the ones who are actually doping...

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02/16/2022 09:42 AM
In better news UCI is allowing drone race coverage starting March 1.

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02/16/2022 10:08 AM
That is good news...the race view from the CX event was awesome. Will be interesting to see how they implement it for road races. I'd love to see the day when drones can be used at the front of a race instead of motorcycles, but we are probably still years away form that.

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02/17/2022 08:28 AM
Segue into one of my pet peeves on race video. They go from overhead footage leading up to the sprint then switch to a long focal length feed from behind the finish line. You can't see the sprint play out, all yo see is a mass of moving color. After the finish they might show an overhead of the last k or so but I want to see it live without knowing who won.

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02/17/2022 09:06 AM
They go from overhead footage leading up to the sprint then switch to a long focal length feed from behind the finish line This x1000....although one of the races I watched this week stayed with the overhead shot, which was great to see. So kuch easier to see what is really going on from above....and most races that look close form the front-on shot really aren't.

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02/17/2022 09:28 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 02/16/2022 10:08 AM That is good news...the race view from the CX event was awesome. Will be interesting to see how they implement it for road races. I'd love to see the day when drones can be used at the front of a race instead of motorcycles, but we are probably still years away form that. CK, replacing the with drones will slow down average race speeds. Think about it. Race leader finds whatever draft he can get off the motorcycle. And if he's solo, he has little else to worry about and a bicycle is the perfect vehicle to detect whatever aero benefits to be had. So he finds that magic spot and speeds up a little. Motorcycle had to speed up to maintain its distance. The Q-S (or whoever) powered field edges up its speed to maintain that 3 minute deficit. Now replace that huge bicycle that has a pair of legs that make Tim Declerq look like a wimp with a giant insect. An insect with turbulence, not draft. Suddenly they are racing without a rabbit and no carrot. And totally alone. Life out there is going to be lonely.

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02/17/2022 09:41 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 02/17/2022 09:06 AM They go from overhead footage leading up to the sprint then switch to a long focal length feed from behind the finish line This x1000....although one of the races I watched this week stayed with the overhead shot, which was great to see. So kuch easier to see what is really going on from above....and most races that look close form the front-on shot really aren't. Front-on shots - the curse of telephoto - no perspective. To get the footage right, the camera should have a normal lens (in the old 35mm cameras, a 50mm); about 12 feet beyond the finish line. (This calls for an extremely rugged camera; probably built to military specs as it would regularly get knocked around by cyclists riding 35 mph. You'd have to pay the photographer a lot. And the CPA would complain. But we all know the end result would be worth it. That frontal view of Cavendish with Gaviria clearly 12" back. (And yes, there was a footnote that the camera man was doing OK in ER after broken ribs and severe whiplash.)

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02/17/2022 09:53 AM
Speculation on the COVID front. I wonder if it hit the CN crew at the Volta. No live updates today. Or perhaps today is such a boring sprint stage they slept in. Edit: Climbing stage today. Summit finish, 7.7km @ 6.1%. Hope the CN crew are faring well.

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02/17/2022 10:25 AM
CK, replacing the with drones will slow down average race speeds. Think about it. Race leader finds whatever draft he can get off the motorcycle. Exactly why I would want to see it.

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