2023 Vuelta - VeloNation - Cycling Forums, Bicycle Forums, Community Forums

Posts:2881

08/22/2023 08:52 PM
Roglic is back, with a good team including Sepp Kuss. AND Vingegaard is riding, (sorry for my misspelling ) best mountain domesticate ever, or Greg waiting for Bernard, i.e. getting screwed by The Man.

Posts:4499

08/22/2023 11:37 PM
I don’t thing Vingegaard is there as domestique. More like backup and to collect data on how he stacks up against Evenepoel before the big battle in 2024 Tour. Collecting performance data is how JV figured out how to wear down and beat Pogacar. I suspect this is part of their plan to figure out Remco.

Posts:2881

08/23/2023 06:22 PM
Hmmm, interesting insight. Predictions anyone?

Posts:2881

08/23/2023 06:23 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 08/23/2023 06:22 PM Hmmm, interesting insight. Predictions for this year’s Vuelta anyone?

Posts:4499

08/24/2023 09:58 PM
Interesting, now Remco says he’s there to learn from Jonas and Roglic I guess everyone is going to class LOL.

Posts:2881

08/26/2023 07:34 PM
Sad that stage one was a twilight rainfest. Lots to come! Side note: the Spanish Football czar clearly crossed don't do that lines, but is defiant. Sounds familiar to this American.

79pmooney

Posts:3180

08/28/2023 11:19 AM
Posted By Orange Crush on 08/24/2023 09:58 PM Interesting, now Remco says he’s there to learn from Jonas and Roglic I guess everyone is going to class LOL. I thought it was taught that the not-so-hot TTers needed to pick up summit finish seconds. Last time i looked that guy who took the first summit finish was at least OK in TTs. (And put himself on a team that did OK in the team TT.)

Posts:4499

08/28/2023 11:49 AM
Its a long ways to Madrid. All that is clear so far is that organization leaves a lot to be desired. TTT in pitch dark, flooded finish line and now a finish area crash.

Posts:4499

08/28/2023 01:11 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 08/26/2023 07:34 PM ! Side note: the Spanish Football czar clearly crossed don't do that lines, but is defiant. Sounds familiar to this American. Spanish are crazy. Now the mother of this imbecile is on hunger strike because of the "injustice" done to het son. LMAO.

Posts:4499

08/31/2023 10:45 AM
Kuss! Really downing that champagne. Well deserved but everything points to GC being far from his mind.

Posts:2881

08/31/2023 04:08 PM
Not a type A personality!

Posts:4209

09/01/2023 11:17 AM
LET SEPP COOK!!! Pretty clear IMO that J-V is backing Rog and using JV as a back-up plan. So he is staying close to Rog to help, but making sure nothing gets too far off the front either. I doubt Sepp will have the legs to finish high up, though....this is his third GT of the year, all ridden at a high level. I hope I am wring!!

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:4209

09/02/2023 04:18 PM
Atta boy, Sepp!!!! Nice to see him get his moment in the sun…..we’ll see how he can manage the TT. Hopefully he stays close enough that J-V doesn’t jettison him in favor of Rog or JV.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:2881

09/03/2023 08:24 PM
OK so JV has the numbers, UAE has something to say, and Remco is very much still in the hunt. Place your wagers here. My weak as* 2 dollar wager in on Primoz. He's good enough, and the support is there, even without VWA to tow him here and there. As for Sepp, Margaritaville has this living champion. Cool that he can be cool and also be a super domestique.

79pmooney

Posts:3180

09/04/2023 11:20 AM
The transfers, the weather. Thunderstorms in early September reroute the flight of many of the teams to Madrid. Riders arrives at their hotels at 3am instead of 10pm. Global warming and events out of control of the race organizers? Ummm ... if you plan for 600 mile transfers in September in Spain and see thunderstorms - would this have surprised race organizers 50 years ago? I'm thinking not. Remco called out organizers for their opening TTT in near darkness. I believe the sun's schedule was set in stone before mankind even existed. Maybe it is time for the Tours to take a step back. Turn it back into a race for the people. From one city to another. Finish and start in the same city. Yes, there would be more long boring stages and finishes in places not on the AAA brochures. But probably thousands of gallons of fuel not burned. (This exponential growth of waste in pro sports - and college sports - boggles me. All the flying. Tearing down 30 year old stadiums of incredible amounts of concrete. Seattle's Kingdom - built to last 1000 years and survive earthquakes. Flying Grand Tours.) Yes, I am not totally a saint. Saturday I drive myself to the start of Cycle Oregon where 1000 of us will ride 1/4 of a GT supported by a fleet of semi-trailers carrying the main stage, big tents, the kitchen, all our gear, a hundred or so Porta Potties . Vendors - beer, wine and now spirits, pizza, espresso, massage, PT ... But no transfers. No flights. Just 450 miles of riding in a loop around that portion or Oregon, not a schizophrenic hopscotch of the state's highlights.

Posts:4209

09/05/2023 10:01 AM
I still think J-V's preferred plan is to see Rog win, but they also appear to be ready to let Sepp ride for the win if he can manage it. IOW, they won't necessarily attack him, but also won't kill themselves to protect him if he has a bad day. My guess is that his legs give way at some point....this is his third GT of the year. Pretty big ask for him to ride for the win now. But man, I hope he pulls it off!! LET SEPP COOK!!

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

79pmooney

Posts:3180

09/05/2023 10:46 AM
The TT. Remco pulled off a good ride. Not quite the time over Roglic he'd hoped for but not shabby. So now it's race on! Next couple of weeks should be fun to watch. And Kuss losing a minute and a half - to Ganna. Quite respectable. I've been saying that I was betting Kuss could put in a decent TT if it mattered. On another forum I pointed out his ride at Utah. I was laughed at and was told that was much lesser competition than the World Tour. Yes. Kuss also had never ridden the World Tour. Now, years later, he is seasoned. And now, for the first time, his TT time matters beyond just making the time cut. No more TTs. Now its a matter of riding smart and seeing if those legs can survive weeks 8 and 9 of his 2023 Grand Tours. CK, yes, J-V will ride for Roglic and Kuss only as long as he is in red or very close. But Kuss is doing what he has to. Fun to watch!

Posts:4499

09/05/2023 11:55 AM
Not looking to be Jonas' Vuelta although JV can still use him for a long-range strategic option later this week when serious grind is on. Good on Sepp. Its a bit of a now or never moment for him as to going for GC. But third GT of year will likely start wearing once the going gets tough. Roglic may be JV's best bet but they have options. And Roglic is all for Sepp having a serious go at this; I'm sure he'd bury himself to make it happen if that is what it comes down to. Best teammate one could hope for. Evenepoel may be strongest of them all but UAE also has three in top 10; while Mas always seems to rescue his season on home turf; this could be very interesting. From Thursday to Wednesday there is only hard stages.

Posts:4499

09/08/2023 09:09 AM
End of road for Remco.

Posts:4209

09/08/2023 12:07 PM
Today bodes well for Kuss' overall win....Remco implodes and J-V has the top 3 GC spots. Ayuso and Mass are so far back that they only require monitoring. There is zero reason for J-V to let the top 3 "fight it out". Kuss got to his GC position by being the loyal teammate and going up the road to help Rog / JV if they made it across, but the break proved to be strong enough to stay away. Welp, that happens sometimes. shrug J-V should just ride tempo from now on and protect the podium. If Kuss has a bad day, they also shouldn't spend too many resources protecting him, though. If that happenes, Rog and JV need to ride for themselves and leave Kuss to fend for himself. J-V also has a history of rewarding their team workers with victories.....true, this would be a massive gift, but Sepp has earned it....both through his riding in the Vuelta and his dedication to the team in past races.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:2881

09/08/2023 12:08 PM
Historic beat down. If they aren't doping, just amazing.

Posts:4499

09/08/2023 04:22 PM
Yeah I think J-V will gladly let have Sepp have GC win if they can. Both Roglic and Jonas are generous enough to let this happen and it will also make for a really good story. At this point its looking good but at least three more hard mountain stages plus a few semi-mountain stages. A lot can happen. It looked like a big beat down today but realistically the time gaps were not that massive to Mas, Ayuso, Uytenbroek, Landa etc. Vingo is definitely not the same guy that won the Tour. Only Kuss looked to be playing. Maybe Roglic was holding back too till then end. With Remco gone and Almeida also on an off day suddenly we're missing compelling competition for JV.

Posts:4209

09/09/2023 09:30 PM
Nice bounce back ride from Remco today.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:4499

09/09/2023 11:28 PM
If you’re far behind you get a big leash.

Posts:4209

09/10/2023 10:18 PM
Oh sure…..but that was still a helluva ride. He went from WAY out and then went all but solo for a LONNNNNNNGGGGG time. And he almost repeated the feat today….

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:4499

09/11/2023 02:44 PM
I'm with Bruyneel on this one in that, impressive ride aside, proper redemption would/should come from directly duking it out with top guys. And as to our reluctant leader https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vuelta-a-espana-leader-sepp-kuss-reluctant-to-be-sole-team-contender/

Posts:4209

09/11/2023 03:08 PM
proper redemption would/should come from directly duking it out with top guys. I think that is a fair point, however, you also have to question whether it is the top guys at full battle cry or just holding serve. IOW, they aren't going to be attacking to win the race now and they damn well won't be chasing after Remco if he attacks in the last 5K. But now that he has his "redemptive" stage win, I agree he should be focusing on staying with the GC guys....going off the front yesterday was kinda silly (although I guess you could argue he was looking for KOM points to secure the jersey)

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Dale

Posts:1767

09/11/2023 08:44 PM
Floyd? 'Zat you Floyd?

Posts:4209

09/12/2023 11:58 AM
Lame tactics by J-V today....zero reason for JV to attack from that far out. hell, there was zero reason for them to ride tempo all day and keep the field together. Let someone else do the work or let the break go. Really disppointed in how they are handling this....they have the podium locked up. They only need to respond to an attack from the enxt 3 riders in GC. If I was Sepp, I'd be pissed.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:4499

09/12/2023 01:02 PM
They wanted the win for van Hooydonk. That’s all.

Posts:4209

09/12/2023 02:32 PM
That is fine and completely understandable.....so have JV ride tempo once he is clear, not pour on time. Set Rog up to win from a small group close to the line, etc. A myriad of options besides having JV attack from ~4k out and almost take the jersey.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Dale

Posts:1767

09/12/2023 03:52 PM
I'd be red hot were I Sepp, that's not how you reward the most faithful and powerful domestique.

Posts:4499

09/12/2023 03:54 PM
Just think of it as Hinault and LeMond. Hinault never gave away any favours. Lemond had to earn his wins. Else it doesn’t count.

Posts:4209

09/12/2023 04:07 PM
Meh....I'm not buying the Hinault / lemond comparison since Hinault only used that logic when it suited him. When it was Lemond up the road, he had Koechli stop Lemond from working and threatening his jersey. There was no "I have to earn my jersey" attitude then. Sepp has earned his position as GC leader....he deserves the same respect / tactics as any other GC leader. If he falters, he falters and then Rog and JV ride their won race. But to attack him needlessly (no danger man up the road and JV has a lock on a podium sweep) was just lame.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:4499

09/12/2023 04:59 PM
From a team perspective today’s tactics were perfect. You want options. With JV now further ahead of competition they’ve considerably improved their options. Kuss is still in the lead but if, as an unknown quantity, he falters there second option looks that much better after today. Plus a No gift win will look that much better for Kuss, if they just hand it to him there will always be talk whether he was in fact the strongest. We’ve been laughing today about the amount of upset from US quarters. And the fact that LeMond would have allowed to have himself held back when Hinault was vulnerable proves a point in itself.

Posts:4499

09/12/2023 05:18 PM
Im also unconvinced Sepp would or should be be pissed. Per his interview he indicated it was great to be in lead but he’d prefer to be in shadows rather than be a leader. That would make today a massive relief as burden of sole leadership got lightened.

Posts:2881

09/12/2023 06:46 PM
JV had a good chance on a podium sweep. Instead UAE got a boost towards the podium.

Posts:4499

09/13/2023 09:44 AM
I don’t think UAE got much out of yesterday (Ayuso complained about it) and not sure what Soler is doing today. JV on the other hand got a much bigger gap to spot 4 and beyond for their number two guy.

Posts:4499

09/13/2023 10:20 AM
This is how you earn that red jersey. Kuss gave Roglic and Jonas the nod to go for it but managed to keep it close in the end. Well done.

6ix

Posts:485

09/13/2023 10:27 AM
I don't believe for one second that Kuss is perfectly OK with remaining in a domestique role for his entire career. These guys are the best cyclists on the planet. All with VERY driven personalities to push their bodies to limits unheard of. He is a competitive beast no matter what the PR people on the team tell him to say. He wants to win this. Jumbo needs to back off and support him, not fly up the road. Roglic and Vingegaard both have multiple GT's under their belt so that's one more to them, while a GT for Kuss is a career-defining achievement. Jumbo sucks.

Posts:4499

09/13/2023 11:35 AM
If Kuss shared your opinion he’d be joining another team. Don’t see that happen.

huckleberry

Posts:824

09/13/2023 12:20 PM
Over the Summer - from his interviews - Kuss has softened to the idea of being a team leader. I could see him going to another team as team leader if it's the right match.

6ix

Posts:485

09/13/2023 12:34 PM
But when did he last sign a contract extension with Jumbo? If he was up for renewal RIGHT NOW, I'd say he'd probably be entertaining other offers so he could be team leader. That's just, like, my opinion. I bet his price just went up a few hundred thousand though. There is just such small opportunity to make bank being a pro cyclist. One crash could take it all away so perhaps he should be thinking about it that way. Make the money now.

Posts:4499

09/14/2023 09:57 AM
Interesting hypothesis that this is really about Jonas versus Roglic supremacy with Kuss caught in middle. If true I could see one of those two leaving after this season and I’d bet it’s Roglic.

Posts:4499

09/14/2023 10:55 AM
Vingo and Roglic are model citizens today lol.

Posts:4499

09/14/2023 11:50 AM
Noticing again that Vingo is pretty vocal about supporting Kuss while Roglic has gotten much quieter. What may ultimately rub is that he's been supplanted as leader for Tour. Anyway, things are not happy at UAE and Bora in terms of leadership. Vlasov attacking his teammate today while Ayuso and Soler also seem to be riding more against than with each other.

jookey

Posts:197

09/14/2023 01:47 PM
Roglic: The road will decide the Vuelta. Jonas: Kuss is leader. I'm ahead of you and you are not dropping my @$$. You can't win. Jonas sits up to open the gap to a little more margin for error Saturday. Nuff said. Kuss dies for Jonas in tour next year. Will he sit up for Roglic in the future if needed? My guess is 'yes', if Roglic doesn't move on (betcha he does). Kuss is about the team. Chapeau!

Posts:4209

09/14/2023 02:06 PM
Interesting hypothesis that this is really about Jonas versus Roglic supremacy with Kuss caught in middle. If true I could see one of those two leaving after this season and I’d bet it’s Roglic. https://escapecollective.com/behind-the-facade-fissures-form-at-jumbo/

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:4209

09/14/2023 02:12 PM
Roglic: The road will decide the Vuelta. Jonas: Kuss is leader. I'm ahead of you and you are not dropping my @$$. You can't win. That is a good take.....wonder if some version of that happened last night.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:4499

09/14/2023 03:20 PM
Yes, pretty much Vingegaard made the call and Roglic has somewhat grudgingly agreed (great to support Kuss but I still would have liked to race).

mondonico

Posts:158

09/14/2023 05:34 PM
I could not be happier for Kuss. Just a true soldier. But still confused. Back in the day would Eddie or Bernard sit up. Just seems strange that everyone knows he is at best the third rider on the road. I love the out come but a gift is a gift.

Posts:4499

09/14/2023 06:43 PM
I think that is why it was important that the other two went on Angiluri (and Jonas attacked stage before that), with Sepp clawing his way to retain lead fair and square. That should put the talk about gifts to bed. He earned it after yesterday.

Posts:4499

09/15/2023 12:12 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/14/2023 02:06 PM Interesting hypothesis that this is really about Jonas versus Roglic supremacy with Kuss caught in middle. If true I could see one of those two leaving after this season and I’d bet it’s Roglic. https://escapecollective.com/behind-the-facade-fissures-form-at-jumbo/ Could not read this but someone said it was about next year’s tour leader? I don’t believe that the case, that question is settled with Jonas being 2x winner. But Jonas getting added to Vuelta lineup maybe was seen as a vote of no confidence in Roglic ability to beat Evenepoel. That would rub bad.

Posts:2881

09/15/2023 11:24 AM
Roglic has a pretty good thing at JV because of the awesome support riders. WVA for example IMO saved Roglic’s Vuelta win last year (or was it the year before?). Would a sponsor pay the big bucks to build a good GT team around him?

Posts:4209

09/15/2023 07:15 PM
Could not read this but someone said it was about next year’s tour leader Yeah…Rog wants to be co-leader at the Tour. JV is the two-times defending champ and Rog can’t keep the rubber side down. Sure, we’ll share leadership. eyeroll

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:2881

09/16/2023 02:07 PM
Clarification: I meant to write Roglic's most recent Vuelta win, not win last year (which of course he didn't).

jookey

Posts:197

09/17/2023 05:12 AM
Nice group shot last 100m yesterday. Yea for Sepp. Chances at a grand tour don’t come around often. Probably his last real shot. He rode great. Even without his advantage in the break, he’d still have podiumed.

Posts:4499

09/17/2023 05:45 PM
In the bag for Kuss. He may get leadership at next Giro is what I read. Looked like Evenepoel made a play for points jersey today but Groves was on the ball.

Posts:2881

09/17/2023 08:23 PM
Kuss for a leader in Spain next year? Really? Because if true perhaps Primoz needs a new team if true, or perhaps his Italian continues to improve. Sepp is a fantastic climber, world class, but surely the stars were in alignment just this year.