Inferno7
Posts:344
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| 07/09/2013 11:53 AM |
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That was pretty messed up he should be tossed from the race. |
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 07/09/2013 11:56 AM |
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That would be my initial reaction also...
We'll see if anything comes of it. |
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The Short White Guy™
Posts:56
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| 07/09/2013 12:00 PM |
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| Cav would have been bitching up a storm if that crap had been pulled on him! |
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mtnbkr
Posts:16
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| 07/09/2013 12:01 PM |
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| Relgated, to last or points removed from this stage and others or tossed -- seemed pretty blatant in the replay. |
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stronz
Posts:447
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| 07/09/2013 12:26 PM |
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| he's such a little punk. pathetic move. I hope Sagan does a wheelie on his fancy-ass venge. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 07/09/2013 12:46 PM |
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| The internet is blowing up over his "irregular sprinting". |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 07/09/2013 12:48 PM |
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| Ease up there guys. Hard curve to the left, the guy who went down was not going for the line as Cav was. STUPID stage finish. |
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Yo Mike
Posts:338
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| 07/09/2013 12:48 PM |
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The Daily Mail is not in his corner.......
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2358920/Tour-France-Mark-Cavendish-causes-crash-final-stages.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
I guess tweets can only do so much damage control. Lets see how the rules are 'interpreted'. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 07/09/2013 12:52 PM |
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http://twitpic.com/d1qi89
I would need to be restrained myself. WEAK. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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C2K_Rider
Posts:173
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| 07/09/2013 01:21 PM |
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Posted By Keith Jackson on 07/09/2013 12:52 PM
http://twitpic.com/d1qi89
I would need to be restrained myself. WEAK.
Kind of tough to tell. Cav is coming around Veelers on the right and at the last second Veelers seems to make a slight move to the right just as Cav is making his move to go left around in front of him. they just ended up in the same place at the same time. Cav just cut it too close.
This is the danger of the lead outs slowing as they peel off in the middle of the group. I'm amazed more crashes don't happen this way. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 07/09/2013 01:24 PM |
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| Yeah, upon looking at it a few times...I am going to give Cav a pass. The dude was not sprinting. First rule of sprinting is that when you get stuck in like that, you don't sit up and you protect yourself and your position. He did neither. He should have had his elbows out and up out of the saddle to be able to take that bump, as it was not a serious shot. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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GJanney
Posts:76
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| 07/09/2013 01:35 PM |
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| Punk move. The guy gets every benefit of riding behind cars to catch the pack for miles at a time, and then quite obviously knocks this guy down. Completely lame. What a lame move. |
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steelbikerider
Posts:66
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| 07/09/2013 01:36 PM |
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| Looking at the twitter vid, you can see Cav lean in left and put his shoulder out well before he passes Veelers and has plenty of room on the right to go around. A punk move on Cav's part |
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Oldfart
Posts:511
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| 07/09/2013 01:48 PM |
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Come on guys. I mean seriously? Clearly the UCI did this to take the heat off the Sky doping issues. Cav did it as a patriotic Brit at the request of Patty boy.
I looked at it a bunch of times and going by the road stripes it looks as though Veelers went right and was looking under his arm as Cav was trying to around him. I can see a sprinter getting royally pissed when a lead out guy actively blocks him and slows down. I have not seen it properly on TV yet though. It would be pretty amateurish to block like that. If that's what happened. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 07/09/2013 01:54 PM |
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| Veelers sat up in the middle of a pack sprint with 250 to go with Cav on his wheel, what is Cav going to do? He had to come over the top. Then Veelers veers to his right as Cav is passing (watch the white line). It was Cav or Veelers going down. Cav did what he had to do. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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mtnbkr
Posts:16
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| 07/09/2013 02:02 PM |
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| I'll need to take a better look at it on TV later, but it seems like Cav hit him lower than necessary if he was merely trying to hold his line.
The bump looked low (though bad viewing angles) -- elbows/wrist would affect control more than a shoulder hit might have. And then Cav continues to ride all across the road (almost trying to take out another) -- so no line holding there.
Also looks like Cav had plenty of room (and no obstruction) had he continued straight ahead (or even went right a bit) and that he didn't need to push left. Should be a better rider than that. |
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BuffFan
Posts:53
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| 07/09/2013 02:31 PM |
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| Pretty hard bump but seems like we see like bumps in many sprints like this without out guys going down, i.e. to be expected up with the big boys |
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jacques_anquetil
Posts:245
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| 07/09/2013 03:09 PM |
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sprint analysis courtesy of Gord Fraser (yes that Gord Fraser) via Facebook:
Had a few people ask so here's my .02. I have only seen the sprint twice so I think I have the gist of it. Veelers was certainly in a place where a 'fresh' sprinter should have been. He was done. He was trying to get out of there safely IMO. He looked over and saw his teammate and naturally tried to move and let Kittel take the draft but by doing so veered slightly right into Cav who wanted the same space as Kittel and badly wanted to move left into that pocket. Problem was Cav needed to wait an extra second but in the heat of sprinting decisions are made sometimes faster then reality. They came together and here's the difference. Cav saw it coming and reacted to ward off Veelers who of course didn't see the contact arriving and had no chance to counter balance. Should Cav have seen it and allowed more space? Yes, I think so. Was the contact necessary? No. I even think there was a degree of intention in the contact, but the contact wasn't hard enough normally to cause a crash. Just the fact that Veelers had no idea it was coming made the contact worse then it should have been. Hendy's body check on the Argos guy 10 seconds earlier was much heavier but both riders anticipated the contact... Was the crash sufficient for a relegation? That's undecided for me at this point... |
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Oldfart
Posts:511
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| 07/09/2013 03:13 PM |
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http://tourdejose.com/2013/07/09/screenshots-cavendish-and-veelers/
Good screen shots here. Almost looks as though Cav's bars hit Veeler's bars and Cav leaning left was to try and move the bike to the right to avoid that. But in the very short clip I saw it did kind of look as though Cav gave him a retaliatory bump for getting in the way.
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 07/09/2013 03:29 PM |
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| Sprints tend to get messy sometimes and wrong split-second decisions get made. Shit happens. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 07/09/2013 03:33 PM |
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I know that my old eyes are getting bad but I'm really wondering about some of the rest of the crew here.
-The sprint is full gas
-Veelers shuts it off in the middle of the road
Veelers made a cat. V move so it doesn't really matter what happened after that, he caused the problem.
Watch the over head view and see how far Veelers moves right to block Cav. If Veelers stays left, Cav just flies past on the right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-Rb0Ba76IM
Veelers is wrong twice before there is even contact. People love to hate Cav. If this exact thing would have happened with any other sprinter it wouldn't even be discussed other than saying who was involved.
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jpouchet
Posts:81
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| 07/09/2013 03:59 PM |
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| Will have to watch this in slow-mo but the frame by frame photo link with blow-up inserts sure looks like Veelers drifted a wee bit too mcuh. If he merely held his line everything would have been okay. Not the best place to wind-up a lead-out for your sprinter unless you fully plan to block out half the lane. That works some times, and works best when you hold your line and force riders to come around you, but either way you run the risk of being tagged from behind. |
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mtnbkr
Posts:16
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| 07/09/2013 03:59 PM |
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@jm
thanks for the video, good to see it and be able to replay in a bigger format than the tweet. I can see Veelers drift right, can see how that would threaten Cav, can see how Cav would want to protect his space. I suppose in the heat of the sprint doing that could cause that such a crash, esp. if Veelers wasn't prepared for it. And I can see how such action may seem magnified when looking at it as an observer -- thus what looks like intent was probably simply reaction to protect self.
However, Cav seemed to have a bunch of room to the right (that perhaps he didn't see in the heat of things), could probably have avoided the bump (which did seem to distract him from the sprint), and then perhaps caught and passed Greipel and Kittel.
Anyway, too bad for the crash and good that everyone else stayed upright. |
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Entheo
Posts:317
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| 07/09/2013 04:18 PM |
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Posted By Andy Eunson on 07/09/2013 03:13 PM
http://tourdejose.com/2013/07/09/screenshots-cavendish-and-veelers/
Good screen shots here. Almost looks as though Cav's bars hit Veeler's bars and Cav leaning left was to try and move the bike to the right to avoid that. But in the very short clip I saw it did kind of look as though Cav gave him a retaliatory bump for getting in the way.
those are good still shots. i saw it live and thought for sure it was cav's fault, but the stills show veeler cooked and fading left and then he's back on the right side of the stripe, and the road is bearing left. cav may have given him a tough lesson in staying on his line. |
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mtnbkr
Posts:16
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| 07/09/2013 04:31 PM |
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| oh, now those screen shots are helpful and the first one seems to show Veeler looking back and, assuming he saw Cav and knew where he was, still drifted right into Cav's space. My position is changing more towards Cav doing what he needed to do in response to Veelers trying to impede him -- booo. |
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durielk
Posts:41
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| 07/09/2013 04:36 PM |
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They were all in a line... The argo rider looked back and seen Cav there, then he gets off the gas, swings way out to the left and then starts edging continuously to the right. Cav thinks he is pulling out and he starts a swing to the right to pass, anticipating the argo rider to continue left and him finishing the swing out with a swing in onto the wheel of Big G or the other sprinter... They meet, I don't think bars hit initially but Cav is commited to swinging back into the wheel at that point.
Lead out man mistake, once done, hold your line or pull out continuously the same direction to the wall.
Sheit happens. |
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Sweet Milk
Posts:93
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| 07/09/2013 05:14 PM |
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| indeed - lead out man's fault; Cav may have leaned harder than necessary, but this happened so quick that I suspect the lean was a reflex (and the right one at that), and not a conscious decision on Cav's part. I doubt that Veelers tried to impede Cav though. |
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BikeCzar
Posts:53
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| 07/09/2013 05:26 PM |
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one thing about women's cycling, there's a lot less manufactured drama and outrage.
Veelers totally balked left then came back right and paid the price. These things happen without the benefit of slow motion replay and still shot analysis. It's bike racing. |
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Oldfart
Posts:511
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| 07/09/2013 07:08 PM |
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Posted By Bike Czar on 07/09/2013 05:26 PM
one thing about women's cycling, there's a lot less manufactured drama and outrage.
That's ironic ain't it? Here at work it's the women folk that get all bent out of shape 'cause there's a cup in the sink.
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laurentja
Posts:122
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| 07/09/2013 09:14 PM |
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Posted By Joop Zoetemelk (as if..) on 07/09/2013 05:14 PM
indeed - lead out man's fault; Cav may have leaned harder than necessary, but this happened so quick that I suspect the lean was a reflex (and the right one at that), and not a conscious decision on Cav's part. I doubt that Veelers tried to impede Cav though.
^ Yup! Although...Cav does use his elbows and shoulders very aggressively - seen it many times before. It sends the message: You are not getting the wheel I'm on without a fight. |
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Tortue Volante
Posts:22
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| 07/09/2013 09:43 PM |
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I still haven't seen the video, but the screen shots are pretty damning for Veeler.
Out of curiousity, how tall is he? Cav is pretty short with a low center of gravity. If Veeler is significantly taller, it's not surprising he went down from that bump.
R. |
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Inferno7
Posts:344
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| 07/09/2013 10:16 PM |
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| Thanks JA for posting that Gord hits the nail on the head. |
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 07/09/2013 11:55 PM |
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One of the lessons I learned in Car 3-4 racing a million years ago was that if there is going to be contact, hit them hard enough that you come out OK. Make contact with arms, elbows or shoulder. Protect your bars!!! It is up to the other rider to do the same.
I didn't see this, but reading you guys it sounds pretty clear that Cavendish did exactly that and the Argos guy broke several Cat 4 rules. And again, without seeing it, sounds like the outcome was exactly what I was taught.
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pikeHillRoad
Posts:95
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| 07/10/2013 09:21 AM |
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Yeah, I don't like Cav, but I think he definitely could have avoided this, but that would have trashed his chance in the sprint. Veelers was wobbling all over the place.
Also, this has been good sprinting this tour. 4 guys who are relatively evenly matched in Sagan, Cav, Kittel and Greipel. Good stuff.
And, yeah, I don't like can, but the urine thing in the TT is bull$4it. |
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bobswire
Posts:304
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| 07/10/2013 10:03 AM |
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Posted By Justin jmdirt on 07/09/2013 03:33 PM
I know that my old eyes are getting bad but I'm really wondering about some of the rest of the crew here.
-The sprint is full gas
-Veelers shuts it off in the middle of the road
Veelers made a cat. V move so it doesn't really matter what happened after that, he caused the problem.
Watch the over head view and see how far Veelers moves right to block Cav. If Veelers stays left, Cav just flies past on the right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-Rb0Ba76IM
Veelers is wrong twice before there is even contact. People love to hate Cav. If this exact thing would have happened with any other sprinter it wouldn't even be discussed other than saying who was involved.
That was my take too,heat of battle,split second decisions $4it happens. Veelers put himself in harms way by not holding his line.
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 07/10/2013 10:58 AM |
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For thoise who haven't yet seen it....
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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stinkyhelmet
Posts:94
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| 07/10/2013 10:59 AM |
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Check out the front on shot video. You can see that Cav proactively and deliberately hits Veelers with his arm/shoulder. Cav was not protecting his line or his position. You can also see/imagine his intention with the shoulder check.
http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/videozone/sporten/wielrennen/TourDeFrance/Tour_Nieuws_verslagen/MV_130709_TDF_laatste_km
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 07/10/2013 11:00 AM |
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| I dunno....yeah, Veelers was drifting, but only slightly. He basically moved from just on the left side of the white line to just on the right side. Cav's move seems pretty damn aggressive for the circumstances. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 07/10/2013 11:15 AM |
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Looking at the race in full speed it's easy to think Cav was a klutz but in slo-mo you see Veelers drifting AND slowing
I rule Cav 5% at fault and Veelers 95%
We can close the thread and end the discussion now  |
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 07/10/2013 11:19 AM |
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I got to watch it in very slow motion on Bob's video above. It is obvious Cav knows there is going to be contact though it looks like Cav should clear. When they hit, Veelers' shoulder is the farthest right of all the shots, like he did a last minute wobble to the right. Immediately after, his bars and front wheel are swung way left. Looks to me like Veelers did not either rider straight or protect his space and handlebars. And as I said above, Cav knew there could be contact, leaned into it and took care of himself.
Smaller riders always have the advantage when contact like that happens. It is up to the larger riders to be aware. (I used to sprint against Paul Curley, a small, very aggressive, rather Cav-like sprinter. I made it a point to always know where he was.)
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bobswire
Posts:304
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| 07/10/2013 11:49 AM |
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Posted By Cosmic Kid on 07/10/2013 10:58 AM
For thoise who haven't yet seen it....
Veers was making a wuss move to impede Cav, Cav was protecting himself while Veers was trying to be cute. The video only shows the consequence not what led up to that result.
Just follow the white line, that tells the story and why the race jury didn't fine Cav.
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GJanney
Posts:76
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| 07/10/2013 11:56 AM |
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| Watching the white line indicates that Veers was going straight along it. While I don't think it was Cav's intent to knock him down, I still think it was a punk move. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 07/10/2013 12:05 PM |
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| Veelers darts to his right, then Cav makes contact. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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pikeHillRoad
Posts:95
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| 07/10/2013 12:05 PM |
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| @gjanney - You have to see more than this clip. Before this thing starts, Veelers pulls off, drifts left, then comes back to the line before drifting slightly right of it - just before Cav hits him. He is guilty of at least riding squirrelly. Add to that an agro sprinter, and bam! |
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GJanney
Posts:76
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| 07/10/2013 12:10 PM |
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| PHR - I've seen the race several times, beyond this clip. I just have the opinion that Cav is being a pouty a** because he's having it handed to him in the sprints this year. |
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GJanney
Posts:76
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| 07/10/2013 12:12 PM |
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In a follow-up article today, Cav apologizes to Veers by phone. Wonder why when he did nothing wrong.....? That said, spraying him with urine is a bit much.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/14962/Cavendish-jeered-and-sprayed-with-urine-during-Tour-de-France-time-trial.aspx
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 07/10/2013 12:30 PM |
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| I have apologized after races for stuff that happened in a sprint because I am not trying to get a bad rap nor do I want people to think I was out to hurt them. "Sorry dude, I was sure I was clear of your wheel when I came over. No harm meant." |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 07/10/2013 12:46 PM |
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GJ, I got to watch Bob's clip frame by frame (my connection is that slow) and it is clear that Cav passes easily with no contact but that Veelers does a sudden serve you only see for the one frame at contact where Veelers is in Cav's path. Cav probably hit Veelers' handlebar end with his hand or arm from behind. Veelers does not have a firm enough grip on his bars to hold them steady at contact.
Again. back to my racing days; I had a rider pass me once when I leaned a little into his path, very similar situation but slower. The rider passing me bumped my handlebar end three times with his thigh. A bit rocky at my end, but I had a firm grip (not a death grip) on my bars and not too tight forearms and it was OK.
Cav could have missed him. I don't blame Cav as he ws finishing a bike race and headed straight up the road. Veelers wasn't riding like he was in with the best of the pros at a big time race. Caught unawares by contact? Huh?
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stinkyhelmet
Posts:94
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| 07/10/2013 01:03 PM |
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WHAT are you watching Ben? Cav passes easily with no contact? Cav hits Veleers elbow/forearm with his shoulder...coming from behind. See the video below at 1:26....can't be missed unless you don't WANT to see it.
http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/videozone/sporten/wielrennen/TourDeFrance/Tour_Nieuws_verslagen/MV_130709_TDF_Cav_Veelers
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 07/10/2013 01:14 PM |
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| Veelers was riding in the hoods and not defending his position, the contact was not severe. I don't think anybody is debating that Cav bodied him. If Veelers was riding in the drops like he should have been in a high speed dicey pack sprint, he would not have went down. That is what we are saying. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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SideBySide
Posts:444
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| 07/10/2013 02:41 PM |
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| Plenty of fault to go around. I'd call it a racing incident and move on. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 07/10/2013 02:49 PM |
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| Yup. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 07/10/2013 03:18 PM |
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I feel the need to repeat what I said already in this thread: Veelers makes two errors before there is contact (three if you count relaxing). He slows down in the middle of a sprint (cat V) and he tries to impede Cav (bush league at that point of a sprint). That makes it 100% his fault. I really doubt that Cav made contact on purpose because he would be risking hitting the ground himself.
Gjanne, no doubt Cav is a pouty pants but how can it be his fault when Veelers shuts it down and tries to slow him/force him wide? The apology is good PR and nothing more.
On one hand its just racing/sprinting but at this level who expects cat V moves. |
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stinkyhelmet
Posts:94
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| 07/10/2013 04:17 PM |
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Comparing Veelers to a cat V is off base. He is well regarded sprinter who knows what he is doing and has given up his personal ambitions to lead out Kittel.
A lead out guy HAS to slow down, otherwise he would be the designated sprinter. All designated sprinters have lead out guys that swing off. Some continue pedalling, some stop pedalling, but all look for a safe escape route. Sprinters know that and work with it.....go around them, not bulldoze them out of the way.
The worst part is that Cav knew he had been out smarted (Kittel jumping first on the inside of the curve) by Argo Shimano and showed his frustration and desperaton by his actions.
My hope is that Veelers heals up to keep the Argo train intact and get a hat trick. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 07/10/2013 04:36 PM |
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Velers is obviously not a cat V but shutting it down in the middle of the road is an amateur move. Stinky, your trying to tell me how sprint works like I don't know what I'm talking about yet even you say the leadout guy swings off. Most of the time if you look behind a sprint there is a trail of guys along the barriers who have done their work and gotten out of the way. Now some leadout guys will let their man come though and then stay on the gas to gobble up points but that's an entirely different thing than we are talking about here.
For the sake of argument, lets says its OK to shut it down in the middle of the road. Is it also OK to look behind you and move to impede another rider at that point in a sprint (especially move right on a road that is going left)?
I still don't think Cav would risk going down just to prove his frustration. |
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stinkyhelmet
Posts:94
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| 07/10/2013 04:59 PM |
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| jmdirt, I suppose that is why they have a odd number of members on a race jury. You and I view this differently and disagree and need a tie breaker :-) |
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GJanney
Posts:76
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| 07/10/2013 05:01 PM |
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| I would perhaps add that passing on the right when the road is turning left is also an amateur move. Knocking someone else down as you do so is also an amateur move. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 07/10/2013 05:07 PM |
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Posted By Justin jmdirt on 07/10/2013 04:36 PM
Velers is obviously not a cat V but shutting it down in the middle of the road is an amateur move. Stinky, your trying to tell me how sprint works like I don't know what I'm talking about yet even you say the leadout guy swings off. Most of the time if you look behind a sprint there is a trail of guys along the barriers who have done their work and gotten out of the way. Now some leadout guys will let their man come though and then stay on the gas to gobble up points but that's an entirely different thing than we are talking about here.
For the sake of argument, lets says its OK to shut it down in the middle of the road. Is it also OK to look behind you and move to impede another rider at that point in a sprint (especially move right on a road that is going left)?
I still don't think Cav would risk going down just to prove his frustration.
Guys go down the middle of the group all the time....and pulling off in a "tactical manner" is also part of the game. Let's say the wind is coming form the right.....lead out man hugs the barrier, launches his sprinter (who comes over his left side) and sits up, effectively blocking other sprinters in. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 07/10/2013 05:24 PM |
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| stinky, I believe that article 1, section 1 clearly states that when there are different views, each person must consume either a beer or a shot of their choice and then try again (repeat until everyone agrees)! ;}
EDIT: PS: I'd like to say that the race jury agrees with me but I know that the deciding factor was less about what happened and more about money. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 07/10/2013 07:03 PM |
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Posted By SideBy Side on 07/10/2013 02:41 PM
Plenty of fault to go around. I'd call it a racing incident and move on.
+1 on racing incident - $4it happens in sprints. Beyond that I think it is as Ben pointed out, Cav did what he needed to do to survive the impact, Veelers did not. No more no less. |
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laurentja
Posts:122
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| 07/10/2013 07:52 PM |
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I watch those vids from both angles over and over and see a Cav that could easily have avoided that shoulder/elbow butt.
I'm sure from his early days at the Brit Cycling Academy they did drills doing just that on the grass. They are taught to assert themselves. He was doing what he learned. Except, it's supposed to be a defensive maneuver, not "kiss off, mother*ker. He should have been fined. |
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BikeCzar
Posts:53
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| 07/10/2013 09:59 PM |
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| do we have any pee throwers in the house? |
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durielk
Posts:41
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| 07/10/2013 10:56 PM |
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| This is a bike race, if your slowing down, get the H out of the way! |
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