RNDDUDE
Posts:78
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| 10/22/2013 10:38 AM |
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Love the "top 30, tops" comment
http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/10/news/lemond-armstrong-manipulated-the-cancer-community_306235 |
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| Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistant one. -Albert Einstein |
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stronz
Posts:447
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| 10/22/2013 10:42 AM |
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| Karma at its very very best |
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Yo Mike
Posts:338
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| 10/22/2013 10:50 AM |
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/AC: And so, when Lance Armstrong says, look, everybody was doing this. I was just trying to even the playing field?
GL: He wasn’t. He couldn’t race on a level playing field. That’s why he bribed the governing body.
AC: What do you think should happen to him now?
GL: This is not a sporting infraction. This is criminal.
AC: You think he should go to jail?
GL: I do, yes. Yes./
It was criminal, and the biggest fraud in cycling, and possibly all sport.
Maybe Netflix can do a series on LA in the Big House, maybe call it 'Orange Is The New Yellow' |
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stronz
Posts:447
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| 10/22/2013 12:14 PM |
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| Now i think Greg has every right to stick a fork in the pig as many times as he wants. Lord knows he suffered greatly at the hands of the Armstrong Ponzi scheme. But -- if it turns out that GL himself engaged in some leveling of the field, it certainly makes for one very smelly pile of $hit. |
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zootracer
Posts:833
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| 10/22/2013 12:35 PM |
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| I watched the interview online. The whole thing was only 5 minutes. I've always respected LeMond as a cyclist. I think he just needs to let this thing alone. He obviously does not like Armstrong, never has, never will. go back to your bike business and stay out of it. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 10/22/2013 02:20 PM |
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This thread should be in the dark side but...
Let's not forget that GL got shot in the gut yet came back to win the TdF against guys who were heavy dopers (maybe not epo yet but all of the other candy) and IV junkies.
The BM comparison is a good one. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 10/22/2013 03:08 PM |
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Posted By Justin jmdirt on 10/22/2013 02:20 PM
This thread should be in the dark side but...
Let's not forget that GL got shot in the gut yet came back to win the TdF against guys who were heavy dopers (maybe not epo yet but all of the other candy) and IV junkies.
Greg's baseline form was consistent. He was a grand tour winner before the accident and he was afterward, unlike Mr. -7. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 10/22/2013 03:58 PM |
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| GL sure got back to that "baseline" quickly after near death though. |
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jrt1045
Posts:363
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| 10/22/2013 04:45 PM |
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hmmmm, the uniballer's advance team used to use the same innuendo to try and paint the same picture about Greg? Face it, he's clean
IMHO LeMond has earned the right to kick the Livestrong carcass for many years |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 10/22/2013 05:02 PM |
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Posted By jmdirt on 10/22/2013 03:58 PM
GL sure got back to that "baseline" quickly after near death though.
Two years is not that quick my brother. And to add to that...when somebody, anybody in the cycling world implicates Greg in any way I will reconsider my stance on him.
Until then...it is still his world. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 10/22/2013 05:34 PM |
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| Uhm, I believe that several boys from "back in the day" have said that if GL was indeed clean, he was the only one. Was he so talented and/or had such a high moral compass that he was the only one who wasn't doing the juice of the day? Was it Parkin who said "it wasn't doping, it was survival"? It would be cool if GL didn't stick a needle in his skin but the idea is pretty unrealistic. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/22/2013 05:56 PM |
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| let me know when you guys figure this one out |
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/22/2013 06:35 PM |
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Clean or unclean...
At any point in time, to the victor go the spoils.
Lance certainly had his spoils, and at very great expense to LeMond - financially and personally.
This is Greg's chance to be alone in a small locked room with Lance.
Feast, my friend.
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 10/22/2013 06:44 PM |
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Posted By Frederick Jones on 10/22/2013 06:44 PM
Agree with the doubts about any pro's purity, ever.
But I also acknowledge levels of cheating, and not all cheating is equally wrong. |
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stronz
Posts:447
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| 10/23/2013 09:01 AM |
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| I agree with LSD -- there are degrees of wrongdoing and in LA's case - for me anyway - his least egregious offense is blood doping and epo use. If he had only done that and hadnt been such a pathologic liar prick things would be different, imo. His bigger offenses are the aggressive misrepresentation to the world and most especially the cancer community. Equally bad was the aggressive bullying of anyone and everyone who dared to question his veracity. The scale of the bluster and propagandizing of the lie just elevate him to Madoff-levels of depravity: the books, the lying to his kids about his "career" as a clean rider who just trained harder and wanted it more than everyone else (OK that last one might actually be true) - but at what cost? -- the ruining of other people's careers and reputations, the lying under oath to gain the bonus payouts -- just mind boggling even as a write this and re-remember the whole spectrum of his truly criminal behavior it makes me pissed-off all over. And I wasnt even anywhere near the pro-cycling inner circle -- I can just imagine how utterly incensed LeMond was and obviously still is. And he is completely justified in everything he said in that interview. |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 10/23/2013 10:00 AM |
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+1 stronz.
I have always said that Lance is like Nixon. The crime was bad. The cover-up and efforts to hide the crimes is what pushes Lance's sins to a whole 'nother level.
Might have Greg Lemond have taken an injection or two over the course of his career? Sure. I can see that happening. Was he on a carefully planned and managed doping regiment? I see zero evidence of that.
Greg reminds me of Bahamontes. He is another guy who is on record repeatedly saying he never doped and also as with Greg, nobody has ever said otherwise. |
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It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 10/23/2013 10:41 AM |
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| Just a quick point re: the "controversy" surrounding his iron injection - IIRC, the Giro was in May that year and EPO was not approved by the FDA until June. So the chances that the shot was EPO are about zero. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 10/23/2013 11:07 AM |
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| I don't agree. Cheating is cheating. I don't care if you use a T patch here and there, or if you are on a full-on program, the intent is the same. As far as the level of what LA did beyond his cheating...I don't even know what to say, that was taken to a level never seen in cycling before and hopefully never seen again. Other events like boxing and horse racing have histories of people being killed for not going with 'the plan' so thankfully LA didn't take it to that level. |
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vtguy
Posts:298
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| 10/23/2013 11:08 AM |
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| +2 stronz |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 10/23/2013 11:41 AM |
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My challenge to "all-doping-is -equally-bad" simplifiers is that it's unlikely that just about anyone at or anywhere near the top level for the last 50 years has been snow-white pure, yet their wrath is not broadly directed. Seems hypocritical say "a curse on them all for they are all equally guilty!!!" yet direct hatred, usually extreme hatred at only a few, often based on the rider's personality and behavior, not whether or not they were juiced.
BTW, FWIW, mass produced manufactured EPO was around for over 5 years (if I recall correctly) before it was FDA approved. Not saying that Greg ever took EPO, but I wouldn't be surprised if he had some limited help. The point is that chemical doping before EPO hardly helped at all so I don't much care if LeMond (or anyone else) took something technically illegal that made little if any difference in his performance. Same goes for the Merckx era. Indurain however clearly was on EPO or blood transfusions. Where's the hatred for Big Mig? Seems like it's about personalities.
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 10/23/2013 02:43 PM |
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If there are different levels of cheating is it OK to cut 500 meters off of the course on the way to victory but not OK to cut off two K on the way to the top of the box?
*Assume the cheater in both cases is a 'nice guy'. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 10/23/2013 04:10 PM |
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| Bad analogy if you are comparing EPO to amphetamines. More like 2k vs 2 inches. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 10/23/2013 05:58 PM |
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| Maybe that's why we disagree, if someone cuts the course by 2" or 2K, I see both as cheating. It doesn't matter 'how much' they cheated, they cheated and it affected the outcome. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 10/23/2013 06:18 PM |
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| I was agreeing with your post until the last bit "and it affected the outcome". My point is that s actually pretty unlikely. Yes I could be wrong. |
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ccrider
Posts:6
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| 10/25/2013 12:16 AM |
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You are either a cheat or your not, there is no middle ground. I know plenty of pro racers that chose not to cheat, all were just as good if not better then the pro tour riders of today or of the recent past. The difference between Lemond and 99% of all cyclist he was truly talented, I know this first hand as do many other cyclist from the 80's and 90's. Lemond was the real deal, a once in a generation type of rider, everyone saw this from the time he was a junior.
I don't believe it's necessarily Armstrong's fault, he like most of his peers were brought up in the culture of blood manipulation. I, like Ulrich believe that cheating starts with any blood manipulation by artificial means the use of altitude tents by Ulrich's definition is cheating. USAC has been pushing the use of tents with the juniors and U-23's for years, there is not one rider that has come out of the development program to the Pro tour that hasn't manipulated their blood. I don't think its a far stretch to say if a junior is manipulating his blood at 15-18 he will have no problem taking the next step to blood transfusions or testo when he's in the U23's and beyond. I found it disingenuous to hear Lawson Craddock admit to his team using altitude tents in preparation for Colorado to get used to the altitude, especially when Livestrong/Bontragers stays in Aspen. It was a joke to hear Phinney say he will never use a finish bottle, this is a kid that has been manipulated his blood since he was a junior...now he draws the line on caffeine and pain killers. I call BS.
Armstrong is a product of USAC just like all of the other American dopers, USAC has taught our riders its ok to cheat, they enabled Armstrong, Hancapie, CVV, and developed DZ. USAC has hired dopers to train our development riders, they help place Tejay with Robobank who we all know had a systematic doping regimen for all of their riders while he was there. USAC is development partners with Livestrong development, Axel BTW was one of the redacted names and was one of the riders who tested dirty. As long as USAC has the current management and conflicts of interest with the Pro Tour and development teams, dopers will be training our youth and the most talented will not rise to the top, only the best funded riders. |
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