politics
Last Post 02/18/2020 08:35 PM by smokey 52. 154 Replies.
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smokey52

Posts:326

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10/17/2019 09:49 PM
As we ride, we talk about stuff. Some of the stuff includes politics. With respect to presidential primaries, I do not understand "open primaries" where people unaffiliated or of a different party can have a voice in selecting my party's candidate. It varies from state to state. Bernie got a boost from this last time. Who might benefit this time?
smokey52

Posts:326

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10/17/2019 09:50 PM
Confession: I was on my own ride and discussing this in my head today. Crazy winds!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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10/17/2019 10:31 PM
IL is an open primary state...for which I am thankful. I am neither Democrat or Republican and I will not join either party. With an open primary, my voice still matters before the general election.

Moreover, I can use my vote strategically. In 2016, I voted in the GOP primary for John Kasich. By the time of our primary, Trump was coalescing his lead for the nomination and I wanted to be able to say I tried to stop it. Next year, I will vote for Joe Walsh in the GOP primary....nit because I endorse that loathsome POS, but because I will take any opportunity to stop Trump from being re-elected.

Regardless of the primary outcomes, I will be voting for the Democratic nominee in 2020. I don’t care who it is, the only thing that matters is defeating Trump.

More generally re: open primaries, yes you can help determine the nominee in another party, but you also give up your ability to vote in your party’s primary, somthere is a trade off. I used to like the idea of being able to vote in BOTH primaries, kind of like a playoff system. However, such a system would be rife with people voting for the “wrong” candidate just to screw with the other party. So the “open” primary addresses that by limiting your primary vote to a single party.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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10/17/2019 11:01 PM
I enjoy my time here with fellow cyclists and hope this thread turns no one off. That said, this is not a good time for the US. As a member of the radical middle, I hope we can climb out of our current deep hole. Billionaires in the US now pay lower taxes than working stiffs. Trump's family makes "official state visits" to countries where they have pre existing business ties, and pretty much no where else. I am certain the current administration will break the record for convictions and jail time. And I am certain that the current occupant's solid minority will accept none of it, as Trump correctly predicted before being elected. Meanwhile Boris d-bag gave away the farm to the EU to create a less embarrassing brexit. . . . . I wonder if the potent force of financial insecurity is weaker than cultural insecurity,
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/18/2019 09:21 AM
As an outsider I get neither the concept of being affiliated with a party or the concept of primaries.

Although I doubt you would have noticed we have a general election as well. It started 2 months ago it will be done Monday. Party leaders were efficiently put forward by their respective caucuses. The electorate isn't necessarily your best bet for picking good leaders.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/18/2019 09:37 AM
Oh, and Warren is your best bet not only to displace Trump but more importantly to address the factors that led to Trump to begin with. A lot of those factors reside with both parties. Still see Trump more as a symptom (that ugly pimple on your forehead) than a cause and certainly for all the $hit he's done and said, still don't rank him as low as W and his gang of war criminals. Current events in Syria even though they're being pinned on your current WH occupant are still a direct consequence of that gang.
6ix

Posts:344

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10/18/2019 01:51 PM
Since he announced he was running for president, it's been a barrage to my mental well-being. Literally every single freakin' day we are assaulted with news of things he does. We are witnessing pure evil, plain and simple. The earth will be so much better when he is gone and they had better hide is final resting place because a whole lot of people will want to piss on it.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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10/18/2019 04:26 PM
As a member of the radical middle


You and me both.

OC, I greatly fear that Trump will trounce Warren in a general election. 2020 will be about the swing states and the moderate voters who held their nose and voted for Trump. For many of them, Warren is just variation of what they experienced in 2016....the misogyny and fear of "socialism" (not to mention the chants of "Pocahontas" ) will, IMO, likely seal our fate.

As noted, I will vote in the GOP primary, not because I am a Republican, but because I want to be able to say that I voted against Trump every chance I could. I will leave the Dems to pick their candidate (not my monkeys, not my circus) and vote for whomever they choose. But a Warren nomination is deeply troubling to me....
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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10/18/2019 05:36 PM
Steve Bullock, governor of WY is very appealing to me. He polls higher in Iowa than most of the candidates on the stage this week. Dem governor in a pro trump state. He would crush Trump in the general election. But he’s too moderate for the Dem base.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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10/18/2019 06:43 PM
He would crush Trump in the general election.


That is the only thing that matters....I honestly don’t care what anyone’s policies are right now. The only thing that matters is defeating Trump. I can live with 4 years of ANYONE’s policies....we just need to get him out of office.

Those that don’t get that and are fighting ideological battles completely baffle me.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/18/2019 08:38 PM
I'll disagree CK. People didn't hold their nose and voted Trump. They stayed home. Trump got less votes than W IIRC. But Clintons vote was that much more depressed relative to Obama's. Why? Because the "everything's just hockey dorey" status quo candidate was the worst possible option in an election that was all about upending that same status quo any which way. 2020 will be a repeat of that but with even more entrenched sentiments. A middle of road candidate will become road kill. Every election just about anywhere these days the middle ground is dead.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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10/18/2019 09:19 PM
I understand your point, but we aren’t talking about winning the popular vote. Dems don’t need to get more people in CA and NY to vote. They already have those electoral votes locked up. What they need to do is swing independents in OH, MI, PA, WI and NC. I don’t think you can do that with a “left wing” candidate (and I hate that term). The only thing that matters is getting to 270 and you can’t do that unless you flip some of those states.

And Dems desperately need to activate the African-American vote....they can’t win without it. And Warren has severe negative in the AA demographic.

None of the above is about policy or platforms....it is only about defeating Trump. And I have severe concerns that Warren can do it. (Actually, I am concerned that ANY Dem can do it in 2020)

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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10/18/2019 09:31 PM
Yep
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/18/2019 09:39 PM
Nope. They couldn't swing those states with a middle ground candidate in 2016 and they won't swing them again in 2020 with one.

Interesting quote in Dutch newspaper commenting on Canadian election. The conundrum equally applies to the Democrats.

"Trudeau has always been a man of the middle. It used to mean that you made friends on two sides. In a polarized world you make enemies on both sides." Or...as I put it down succinctly on FB on that fateful day in 2016 "if you put forward an establishment candidate in what's clearly an anti-establishment election you stand to lose". I sure hope I don't have to post those words again although I wouldn't bet against it. The Ds have a habit of shooting themselves in foot.
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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10/18/2019 09:44 PM
In other news, just read that mini Phinney is retiring. Never really got his mojo back after that horrible crash. Understandable. If you're a poor black kid from the projects in the NBA, or a grew up dirt poor African, South American or Euro equivalent playing pro soccer in Europe, the world might look different. Glad Phinney has the option to just hang it up.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/18/2019 09:48 PM
Hmm are you still poor after you played NBA. Certainly the south Americans that have played in Euro league can just simply hang it up.

Now if you're a female cyclist on the other hand...
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/18/2019 10:04 PM
Fun stuff btw. The political posts is why I joined the original forum. There's a 1001 cycling forums but just talking about cycling is boring.

You have my input. I'll come back with the I told you so 13 months from now LOL.
smokey52

Posts:326

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10/19/2019 07:26 AM
I think that turnout is the key for 2020, the same way it was in 2018 when the House flipped.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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10/19/2019 07:56 AM
Nope. They couldn't swing those states with a middle ground candidate in 2016 and they won't swing them again in 2020 with one.


No, they couldn’t swing those states because the Dems ran a horrible candidate that was deeply polarizing, compounded with a horrible campaign strategy. It was not about policy, it was about the perception by many middle-ground voters and conservative voters that she was the very embodiment of the “Establishment”.

Look how many Obama voters then voted for Trump....it wasn’t out of policy it was out of frustration with the status quo, both times.

And nothing will make me happier than, if Warren is the nominee, that you come back here in 13 months and gloat that you were right and I was wrong.....but I deeply fear that it won’t happen.

It is staggering to me that the Dems can’t find a candidate that can make the 2020 election a lay-up.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
huckleberry

Posts:558

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10/19/2019 10:18 AM
I like the idea of a Warren/Booker ticket.

Dale

Posts:1259

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10/19/2019 10:47 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 10/19/2019 07:56 AM
No, they couldn’t swing those states because the Dems ran a horrible candidate that was deeply polarizing, compounded with a horrible campaign strategy. It was not about policy, it was about the perception by many middle-ground voters and conservative voters that she was the very embodiment of the “Establishment”.


Exactly this. Hillary Clinton's own friends don't like her.

I can't believe the Dem's ended up stuck with her last time and that for 2020 such a weak and wounded field is who we get to choose from.

I'm also shocked by my conservative friends acceptance of Trump's abhorrent behavior, his pandering to dictators, his use of the office for personal gain, the nepotism, and his general incompetence. I think the only thing he could do that would turn them against him is to come out staunchly pro-choice.
That would be the tipping point for many of them.... that or if he came out in favor of gun control, but I suppose, since he flip/flopped on the latter so many times they would just blow it off as a momentary lapse of NRA donations which will soon be rectified.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/19/2019 01:10 PM
I don't think the Democratic field is weak. In fact I'd rate it as strong. But policy wise they're all over the map. It's one of the problems with your primaries. Policy should be settled first. Then pick a candidate who can sell it.

The only weak item in the field is Biden. It's clear he has no energy or conviction to actually be in race. And he may have taken wind out of sails of better moderate candidates. Its another shoot yourself in foot moment by the Clinton arm of the party desperately trying to hang on to power.
huckleberry

Posts:558

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10/19/2019 01:57 PM
I agree with you OC in regards to excitement - yes, I think priority number one is getting rid of the douchebag, and like you, I think the base needs to be excited - I do.

Even moreso today, I feel we would be in a much better political and cultural moment if, yes, I am going to say, if Bernie had been the Democratic nominee in 2016, and had won.

Where would would be morally - which is what I believe is most important in a nation - would be heads above where we are now, and on closer par with what "America" believes it is. No, we are not a moral nation - we like to believe that fantasy, but this last election and Trump's continued support has proven its falsehood. I want to believe in morality - that my fellow man also believes passionately. I'm not talking about religion, which has shown its true color the past three years with a new definition of Christianity - closer to the face I always believe it had underneath the mask which they have finally shirked now once again in power.

I need excitement. I need hope. And there's only two in the Democratic field that give me that - Warren and Sanders. But, yes, I will be voting for whoever is on the ballot opposing Trump.
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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10/19/2019 08:48 PM
At least there is no thumb on the scale for the Dems this time, quite a change from 2016. IMO, Bozo the clown would have beaten Trump, and Bernie surely would have beaten Trump. The only candidate on the planet he could have beaten was locked in by the Dems before the primaries began.
At least for the Dems now, Trump is the gift that keeps on giving. State houses and local elections are tilted against the Republicans due to Trump antipathy
The Parliamentary system used by the Brits and Canada combines legislative and executive power for the party in charge. Something unpleasant like the Watergate scandal would have been erased with a no confidence vote without the constitutional crisis we endured. OTOH, the US checks and balances model has, overall, served us rather well. An exception is now, when the President's party's congressmen are, as George Will states it so well, supine, rather than upholding their constitutional duties. Because Trump has hypnotized so much of the Repub base and they are afraid, kudos to the current occupant's persuasion and badgering skills for that. And a big thumbs down to the US electorate for tolerating this.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/19/2019 09:09 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 10/19/2019 08:48 PM
The Parliamentary system used by the Brits and Canada combines legislative and executive power for the party in charge. Something unpleasant like the Watergate scandal would have been erased with a no confidence vote without the constitutional crisis we endured.


Our Monday vote is largely between the disappointing Trudeau liberals and the Conservatives who are neck and neck but both in solid minority government territory. The Conservatives last time when they were in power prorogued parliament on several occasions to avoid no confidence votes related to various scandals. This included corruption in PM office, muzzling of scientists, stirring up anti Muslim sentiment, trashing of environmental laws, etc.. Sound familiar? Harper was a mix of W and Trump with a smile and a demeanor of sensibility. The most dangerous kind of right wing nut. So this time around many will hold their nose and do whatever it takes to keep out the Cons. I'll be voting NDP a party that would make Sanders feel at home. Our town is a good old fashioned blue collar socialist stronghold. Good for us. Mine is the local strategic vote. Preferred vote might be Green but until we get proportional representation (one of several Trudeau broken promises) that doesn't make much sense. At least we have choices though with five major parties.
smokey52

Posts:326

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10/20/2019 05:37 PM
Is Justin still red-faced over the black face?
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/20/2019 10:29 PM
The SNC affair will follow him a lot longer. Trying to influence the attorney general on a judicial outcome. Sound familiar?
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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10/21/2019 09:41 AM
That blackface incident seemed almost trivial. We folks in the middle disagree with equating Trudeau's costume with Nazi racists. Same thing has happened with Me Too - if you unintentionally made a woman uncomfortable, like Garrison Keillor, you're lumped in with serial rapists and erased from the public sphere. This intolerance moves reasonable people to Trump.
huckleberry

Posts:558

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10/21/2019 10:44 AM
"This intolerance moves reasonable people to Trump"

I have no, yet so many responses to this comment and it's sensibility.

I too agree we go a bit too far with the PC, but often it needs to be pushed further as to maintain the intention as it eventually settles back down, but hopefully not so settled that it all remains the same as before that particular action was called out.

No responsible, moral, or ethical human being moves towards the ideology or presidency of Trump. I don't make or like absolutes, but I'll stick with that one.
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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10/21/2019 10:55 AM
Fair enough. I'd stick a hot poker in my eye before I'd vote for him. But I still see people voting with their feet. They aren't bothered by his narcissistic antics as much as others. Maybe deep down they are racists, but I see it as they are afraid due to cultural and economic uncertainty. Which Trump plays like a fiddle. And some are just gullible. Some of these folks voted for Obama, really. These swing and middle ground voters will pick the next pres.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/21/2019 01:01 PM
My main and only problem with the PC stuff is that it keeps our eyes off the ball when it comes to big ticket items. Like Trudeau's role in SNC Lavalin affair; a clear case of corruption. Yes ideally we'd be able to put emphasis on both but public and media tend to me enthralled by easy imagery of black face instead of focusing on the more complex items that aren't as sexy.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/21/2019 02:26 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 10/21/2019 10:55 AM
Fair enough. I'd stick a hot poker in my eye before I'd vote for him. But I still see people voting with their feet. They aren't bothered by his narcissistic antics as much as others. Maybe deep down they are racists, but I see it as they are afraid due to cultural and economic uncertainty. Which Trump plays like a fiddle. And some are just gullible. Some of these folks voted for Obama, really. These swing and middle ground voters will pick the next pres.


We got the same issues here basically. People voting Conservative to protest Trudeau but forgetting that the Cons are the party who last time around pulled the rug underneath democracy by prorogueing parliament. Of course here in Canuckistan never seem as dramatic as south of 49th and maybe they aren't.

On the hot poker in the eye, I recommend watching John Wick episode 3.
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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10/22/2019 12:20 AM
Yes the PC and cultural identity enthrallment is manna from heaven for Trump.
PS Congrats to the Canadian PM, he survived, but with a minority if I understand correctly.
thinline

Posts:274

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10/23/2019 10:50 AM
I heard an interesting remark the other day.  Something along the lines of "If you stand in the middle of the road you get hit by cars coming from both directions."

Fingers crossed.  Trump is a menace to all that is decent.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/23/2019 12:18 PM
LSD - Yes Trudeau survived but liberals lost of lot of seats. Most of that vote share shifted to more progressive parties to the liberals left. Some of it went to Cons to their right. The country is getting more polarized, with coast and urban areas becoming increasingly left leaning and the heartland and rural areas becoming more right leaning. The middle ground is deflating, as it is elsewhere, and its that same trend/risk that your Democrats need to consider in the primaries.
Cranky Tom

Posts:50

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10/23/2019 03:28 PM
I thought this article and the paper it is about were pretty interesting and make some valid points about the reasons why our democracy is where it is.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/09/08/shawn-rosenberg-democracy-228045

As others have pointed out, Trump is a symptom of a bigger problem. He's not the cause (but he is a complete disaster and he needs to go). Also, while the article focuses on these issues giving rise to right wing extremism, I think they are giving rise to extremism on both the right and the left which leaves us moderates high and dry.
huckleberry

Posts:558

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10/24/2019 02:51 PM
I would love someone to truly explain to me what "moderate" means culturally, and what it means to them individually.

Specifics.

Not trying to be snarky, but the target keeps moving.

I used to consider myself moderate and then I realized that I was just being a pussy and not standing up for what I truly believe in.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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10/24/2019 07:41 PM
Moderate can mean a lot of things....for some it means they are aligned with the central aspects of a given party, but maybe not to the extremes that the majority of their party wants.....so you could be for immigration reform, but not be down with the separation policy of this heinous administration.

I personally prefer use the term “centrist”...and that is because I don’t fit in the overall philosophy of either party. I hold “conservative” positions on some things, but “liberal” positions on others. What I try very hard to do is be intellectually consistent. I will call out leaders from either party if I disagree with them.

Lately, many people try and label me as a “liberal” because I am vehemently opposed to Trump and his Cult of Personality that has taken over the GOP. But being anti-Trump is not the same thing as being a liberal...it is just an easy (lazy?) attempt at classification.

What I am NOT afraid to do is stand up for my beliefs....being a centrist does NOT mean I am without strong beliefs or I try and straddle a philosophical fence.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/24/2019 07:47 PM
The target has moved Huck.

Back in the New Deal days Sanders would have been well within the normal range of political spectrum.

Reagan managed to push that spectrum way off to right with Democrats mostly meekly following along with that push.

So now Sanders, AOC and to a lesser degree Warren are finding themselves on the fringe of that spectrum. The challenge before you guys is to move that spectrum back to its normal range. Reagan showed a big push is possible (it was doubted at time), no reason it can't be pushed back.

As it stands your politics is missing an entire half of what voters in most other countries have on offer. Hence that enthusiasm behind supporters of those three. They are providing the missing piece. And this is where Sanders is so important. Not so much his candidacy. But continuing to push that left boundary. Providing the missing piece.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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10/24/2019 08:10 PM
There is no doubt that on the international political spectrum, the US is much further to the right than other countries...whether that can be easily moved is up for debate.

It definitely will NOT be moved in the short-term and adopting a true left-wing position will all but ensure that Trump gets re-elected. The only thing that matters in 2020 is defeating Trump. Policy is secondary in 2020.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
zootracer

Posts:714

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10/24/2019 08:37 PM
It's nice we can discuss politics on this site and keep it civil. My wife and I try to avoid talking about politics in social situations. We live in an area with a large number of Trump suporters. Either of us like The Donald. Agree, best thing to do is to vote him out of office.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/24/2019 08:53 PM
CK. Reagan was defeated in 1976 primaries as being too radical. Four years later he was president. Things can go quick and the momentum for a push to left has been building steadily.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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10/25/2019 08:41 AM
The circumstances were totally different in 1976....the GOP was still reeling from Nixon and Watergate. Moreover, reagan was waging a primary battle against a sitting (albeit unelected) President. Despite that, he damn near pulled it off.

And Reagan's policies were not that dramatically different than his true Republican predecessor (Nixon). So 1980 was really the outcome of the foundation he laid in 1976. It isn't that the party suddenly lurcehd to the right...they just found their stride, greatly benefited by a crumbling economy, international events and an opponent widely seen as ineffective.

Since that time, the US has become even more conservative....the idea that you can get enough people in the swing states to embrace an left-wing platform is just not realistic, IMO. The Dems don't need to get more people in LA, Chicago and NY out to the polls, they need to convert moderates and independents who voted for Trump last time. Medicare For All, the Green New Deal and saying you are going to take people's guns away is NOT a platform to achieving this.

I am not saying such ideals are right or wrong....I am just making a political observation as to what it will take to oust Trump in 2020.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
huckleberry

Posts:558

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10/25/2019 10:57 AM
You may be right CK on your beliefs about Trump being re-elected if a far-left candidate is nominated, but you also may very well be wrong.

In fact, you may be very wrong as a centrist candidate may not inspire enough of a majority of either of the bases.

Making the statement of a personal belief, such as mine, doesn't mean $4it. Beliefs are not facts or true predictors of a future outcome.

It will be an interesting, and possibly very depressing and/or violent outcome in 2020.

I will cling to my hope for a better future, not just a less bad one ; )
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/25/2019 11:15 AM
CK - I'll turn that argument around on you a little bit. The swing states being where they are have been an area of economic angst. It's also where things like minimum wage, foreclosures etc. play huge and where there's a lot of resentment of big money that resides on the coast with banks, huge corporations etc. They feel like they've been overlooked by either party and gotten the raw end of the economic stick. A political platform (like Warren's) that addresses this may well be a big selling feature. Conversely, a platform of an establishment (moderate) candidate who indicates that things are just honkey dorey leaving big money to do as it pleases may get solidly rejected or lead to a meh, I'll just stay home. And there's a lot of Trump voters on record as actually liking Obamacare. The prospect of Medicare For All will not be lost of them.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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10/25/2019 01:03 PM
There is certainly some merit to that...as I noted, Trump attracted a fair number of Obama voters. People who were sick of the status quo and wanted “change”.

However, wanting “change” and being frustrated with the status quo does not necessarily equate to wanting the blow up the whole system.

For example, “Medicare For All” polls very poorly, but people want improved healthcare options. Forgiving student debt also polls poorly, but Sanders and Warren are both advocating strongly for it.

What I have said for over a year now is that Dems need a central platform and that platform needs to address key issues that the majority of the population supports:

* Gun Control
* Climate Change
* Healthcare
* Education
* Taxes on the wealthy

“Here is what we stand for...everyone running for our party’s nomination supports these things. By voting for the Democrat, you will have increased access to lower cost healthcare, we will pass sensible gun regulations, we will install programs to tackle Climate Change, we will restructure student debt and we will rescind the Trump tax cuts on the wealthiest .1%.

Each of our candidates supports these issues, although perhaps to differing degrees. We welcome that debate / discussion. But we all stand united in the pursuit of these goals and we stand united to defeat Donald Trump.”

THAT is how you win the election in 2020....NOT by fighting for some sort of ideological purity.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/25/2019 01:11 PM
Haha - what I'll agree on, and I think that was my original post in this thread is that the Democrats need a platform before picking a candidate who can sell that platform. This is the perpetual horse behind the cart of primaries in which you first hold what basically comes down to a popularity contest and only when that is settled is there serious talk about platform (mostly set by successful candidate; between that platform and her VP pick Clinton lost the script and I knew she was toast).

In pretty much all other countries the platform/candidate question is settled internally by the party in which the party doesn't end up with someone they didn't really want (as was case with Repubs/Trump). The public at large are really a poor replicate for making this choice (ending up with movie stars and game show hosts). It also substantially shortens the election cycle. In Canada we got things done start to finish in 40 days. But this won't go over well with your media; they need the election cycle to remain the circus and peep show that it is, and they need candidates that know how to throw a tantrum.
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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10/25/2019 10:18 PM
Warren will increase Dem wins in NY and CA. Who cares. A lot of those essential swing voters in those key swing states won't vote for Warren. Too liberal for them. Even if that's dumb for them.
Harris? Maybe. I like Bullock, but he can't get on the debate stage let alone nominated in the current Dem system.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/26/2019 09:32 AM
Consider that the repubs are targeting those same swing states with extreme tactics.

"He said the Republican tactics are aimed at a small slice of persuadable independent and swing-state voters."


"We're basically watching a show unfold that is essentially for the benefit of probably less than 10 per cent of the voters in six states," O'Connell said.

Do you put a meek middle of road candidate against such tactics or is it fighting fire with fire? Or is this a separate question from politics and candidates altogether?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/impeachment-trump-republican-sciff-1.5336312
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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10/26/2019 09:34 AM
At a minimum I think this shows kicking Trump out is but a tiny part of a much bigger job to kick out the entire Repub establishment at grass roots Congressional level. A much harder job. This kind of stuff will not disappear with the mere shuttering of Trump. It existed before him and will continue to exist unless addressed at the polls.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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10/26/2019 11:05 AM
Posted By Orange Crush on 10/26/2019 09:32 AM
Consider that the repubs are targeting those same swing states with extreme tactics.

"He said the Republican tactics are aimed at a small slice of persuadable independent and swing-state voters."


"We're basically watching a show unfold that is essentially for the benefit of probably less than 10 per cent of the voters in six states," O'Connell said.

Do you put a meek middle of road candidate against such tactics or is it fighting fire with fire? Or is this a separate question from politics and candidates altogether?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/impeachment-trump-republican-sciff-1.5336312


A centrist or moderate candidate does not equate to being “meek”.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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10/26/2019 09:04 PM
Agree. And along this line, Reagan 2.0 got the nod, heavily retooled from his many losing campaigns.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/04/2019 07:20 AM
Again, it is the battle ground states that matter, not national polls. If Dems nominate Warren or Sanders, Trump wins again. Mark my words.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/04/upshot/one-year-from-election-trump-trails-biden-but-leads-warren-in-battlegrounds.html
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
smokey52

Posts:326

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11/04/2019 06:08 PM
As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, I do not like open primaries. By coincidence, quite a few of the early primaries are open. The early primaries have undue influence on the following primaries. In my opinion, this means that non-Democrats have undue influence on the eventual nomination. In 2016, Sanders did much better in open primaries than in closed ones.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/04/2019 06:40 PM
Is that the same NYT that predicted Clinton would cruise to victory LOL. A lot of these polls suck at anything other than bias confirmation. There were a few that deviated from the trend in 2016 and they correctly predicted the outcome. Rasmussen was one of them if memory serves.

And then of course there's this, which means you're hooped any which way.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-11-03/trump-on-course-to-win-2020-re-election-if-economic-models-right
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/05/2019 07:18 AM
The NYT never predicted Clinton would cruise to victory. All their polls fell within their margin of error. 70k votes determined the election across a small handful of states.

Which only confirms exactly what I have been saying. This election is not about appealing to the majority of the country, it is about the swing voters in a handful of states.

Nothing else matters except defeating Trump. No agenda or policy is more important than that.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/05/2019 08:49 AM
Sorry, it appears I got my 538 polls mixed up with NYT. The NYT polls were accurate on a national level, but missed the state level.

If you listen to podcasts, I highly recommend today's episode of The Daily . Goes into great detail on the polls, how they corrected for 2016, etc. If you aren't scared schittless about the prospect of Trump getting reelected after listening to it, you should be.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/05/podcasts/the-daily/whos-ahead-2020.html
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/05/2019 11:22 AM
The issue with polls is the same as with preparing a flu vaccine. You can correct for 2016 all you want but you cannot predict the factors that will be important in 2020. Not yet anyway. The other problem with polls is that they've been relying on increasingly small sample sizes, which tend to increase the potential for bias. That economic model predictor I linked has a better track record than the polls (which just goes to show that Bill was right).

The problem with that NYT article is that they made a huge overreach on a poll where all the outcomes were basically within the margin of error (if you get into the weeds of the content). It was bottom line barely hidden messaging of the corporate powers to democratic voters. If you don't support our favorite candidate we will support the other guy. One of a slew of similar articles that have come out of the woodwork in recent weeks with that very Wall Street message. The one thing scarier than another Trump presidency is the notion that corporate powers seem to be perfectly happy with continuing that situation.

I agree with you that it is the swing voters in a handfull of states that matter. But it is important to realize who those swing voters are. They are not the traditional Repub-Dem cross-over voters; this is a very small sliver. The larger numbers are found with Green and Libertarian voters as well as the no shows, and this is who a Democratic candidate will need to appeal to in the swing states. It goes back to Huck's question about "what is a moderate candidate".

https://www.rollcall.com/news/congress/how-third-party-votes-sunk-clinton-what-they-mean-for-trump

As the article points out, the third party vote is up for grabs as Trump has done zip to appease them. But I don't think Biden is able to make this pitch. His ship will sink in a very similar fashion as Clinton's due to too much baggage (even if some of that baggage is make belief) and being seen as too chummy with the corporate class. It's not Sanders either and I am quite certain he knows this based on that he has and hasn't done so far. Warren is sitting somewhere between these two but it will depend on the moves she would make after the primary (a more conservative VP that is a friend of corporate america and a dialing back on medicare for all messaging could seal the deal). The only other candidate will a real shot seems to be Buttigieg who's fortunes have been rising as Biden is seen as faltering. But he'll need to come up with a coherent message other than just saying no we can't do this. The rest is just running on fumes.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/05/2019 04:44 PM
Oh, I agree 100% that Biden is leaking oil and just hoping to cross the finish line w/o screwing up. If the election was today, he would defeat Trump handily. A year from now? Not certain at all.

I like Buttigieg a lot. he has a calm, reasonable demeanor....but 1) I don't think the US is ready for a married gay couple in the WH and 2) he has a HUGE problem in the African American community. NO AA vote, no win next November.

I'll say it again...the fact that the Dems could not get a "safe" candidate to be their nominee is mind-numbing. Biden is leaking oil and playing "hide and seek", Sanders is only about Sanders (and not even a Dem anyway), Warren will get trounced in a general and Mayor Pete is gay.

Beto really screwed up....he should have jumped in immediately after lsoing the TX Senate race. His waffling and indecisiveness cost him any shot at the nomination. He coulda taken it in a cakewalk.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/05/2019 09:15 PM
Buttigieg can't win the general election in the current USA. However, he would be great for a cabinet post if a Dem wins, that would be a step forward that would resonate if he does a good job. Beto is a lightweight. He would be effective campaigning for someone else. I was a congressional intern in the early 80s. Sen. Biden was an extremely effective shill for the financial outfits that Delaware sheltered. Some of the same outfits that caused the great recession, etc etc. Now he's a bit senile. Like Beto he would do more good as a king maker. Embrace it Joe!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/05/2019 09:27 PM
Here in VA the state house is under Dem control for the first time in a long time. Trump is the gift that just keeps giving.
I hope they are smart in how they handle their newfound majorities. VA is not Mass or California, and slow and steady moves like modest gun control and restoring local control over Confederate iconography (it's a thing here) would be just right. A sharp turn to the hard core Bernie and Warren voters would backfire. Slow and steady wins the race.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/05/2019 10:14 PM
Congrats LSD...definitely a monumental win in VA.

And there was also this piece of news from Loudon County. Some heroes wear a helmet and ride a bike.

https://twitter.com/mrvndn/status/1191893015842971648?s=21
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/05/2019 10:34 PM
A bit of sunshine. Yes! Here in our little burgh we may yet make America better, even great.
In our last cycle two years ago a trans candidate clobbered a long serving gay and trans basher. But not until today that was enough for a majority.
Yo Dems. Don't f up.
smokey52

Posts:326

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11/05/2019 10:36 PM
tRump was a big help in the Kentucky gubernatorial race.
huckleberry

Posts:558

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11/06/2019 11:16 AM
So CK and LSD, if I am reading what you are saying, the Dems are already screwed for the win unless we have a moderate candidate.

Realistically, at this point, that leaves old Joe and possibly Klobuchar.

They might placate some old bible-clinging Midwesterners, but what will they do for the rest of us? Progressives, the youth, the minorities?

I don't argue that we might be screwed with not having a candidate that inspires or even satisfies the entire democratic demographic, but I certainly don't think your tactic of "anyone but Trump" is a healthy agenda.

I'll go down with progress and inspiration, not with the status quo which got us where we are and has put us in a position that we can no longer afford to waste time with your not even half measure political proposals.

This will be an election to prove that we are better human beings than we have demonstrated in quite some time. Trump gets elected again would be proof that it no longer matters what some of us may hope for a future - responsibility for the planet, caring for each other, morality, plain decency.

Of course, whoever is on the ballot against Trump will get my vote, but I will not be kowtowed at this point by fear mongers to stray from what I believe in and hope for.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/06/2019 11:31 AM
Well said Huck...

On Virginia, I guess being finally able to enshrine ERA could be seen as progress but really being several decades after the fact it shows the fallacy and failure of incrementalism. Being able to grasp the levers of power is perhaps cause for some celebration but really it should not be the end goal; whether the D's do something with those levers and make meaningful change over next four years should be the true measure of achievement. Leave that champagne corked for now.

US politics remains deadlocked in a Catch 22 it seems. At least until someone or something snaps you out of it. When that happens, it may be ugly (as the last four years have been) or it may be beautiful, but it won't be incremental. History is littered with upset events that no one saw coming.
Dale

Posts:1259

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11/06/2019 01:14 PM
I've all but given up hope that Trump will lose in 2020.

The D field is so dull and uninspiring it's a wonder none of them have fallen asleep in the middle of a debate.

Sanders will get branded as a Sandinista, furthermore he's a poor street fighter.
Warren's "I have a plan" song is getting old, and her hard left ideas don't play in the heartland.
Biden loves a good scrap and he'd do well brawling with Donnie but you'd need a 777 to carry all his baggage.
Mayor Pete? Everyone else? Dull. Dull. Dull.

The purist ideologues will stay home or vote 3rd party if the D nominee isn't their brand of Democrat.

The only way for tRump to lose is for someone to hire Valerie Plame's ad agency, buy Red Bull by the gallon, and go after Trump like a no-holds barred cage fighter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICW-dGD1M18

Otherwise we'll just have to hope a generation of crotchety old white guys collectively croak before November 2020.


huckleberry

Posts:558

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11/06/2019 01:45 PM
I disagree Dale.

Bernie does inspire me. Warren inspires me.

They may not inspire enough people, but I don't think there's anyone else in the pipeline to do so.

I find Trump inspiring. He has shown me what the ugly side of humanity and America looks like and what's possible to come. It's not pretty. It's damn scary from my perspective.

I find that awfully f#@king inspiring.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/06/2019 03:03 PM
So CK and LSD, if I am reading what you are saying, the Dems are already screwed for the win unless we have a moderate candidate.

Realistically, at this point, that leaves old Joe and possibly Klobuchar.

They might placate some old bible-clinging Midwesterners, but what will they do for the rest of us? Progressives, the youth, the minorities?


Are you willing to subject the country to four more years of Trump over this?

Again, I am not arguing ideology here, but practicality. The house is burning down and we need to put out the fire, not argue over whether to save the china or the TV. I will gladly accept whatever policies come with whatever Dem candidate gets the nomination....they just need to be able to defeat Trump.

If the Dem nomination boils down to an ideological purity test, we all lose. If the progressives stay home because they don't get Bernie or Warren as the nominee, then they deserve another 4 years of Trump....

I simply can't understand that position when we see the damage Trump has done to this country in only 3 years....we can't take another 5 of it. All our norms and rules of law will be shattered and the GOP will never lose power.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/06/2019 03:05 PM
Dale and I are on the same page.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
huckleberry

Posts:558

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11/06/2019 03:28 PM
I get you CK, but what specifically, or should I say, WHO are you specifically saying should be the nominee? You've been vague so far.

I already stated that I would be voting for WHOEVER is on the ballot opposing Trump, but also said what I believe is the answer to what my hopes for the country are. A progressive agenda.

No, the country cannot withstand another 5 years, but you can't be like Mayor Pete and just tell us what is wrong, but you need to tell us what you specifically propose to fix it. Fixing it meaning who do you support - no need to say why as you've already stated that a "few" times ; )
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/06/2019 03:51 PM
I honestly don't have a preference huck, as long as they can defeat trump. I am an independent and I don't feel strong enough about any of the Dem candidates to vote for them in the primary. (again, I'll be voting against Trump in the GOP primary). Not my monkey, not my circus. Dems need to make that decision.

If I had my druthers, I'd really like to see Kamala Harris win. Despite her race and gender being huge marks against her in this political climate, I'd pay a lot of money to see her go up against Trump, especially in a debate. But her campaign has been lackluster for the primaries, so I don't know if she would have what it takes in the general, either.

I know this sounds horrible, but the Dems needed a charismatic, straight 40-50 white guy to run this year...if they had that nominee, 2020 would look much different. The only guy who came close to that was Beto and he screwed up from the get-go with his "I'm not running, but now I'm running" nonsense.

Sanders - too old and whacked out (and not even a Dem)
Warren - Too much misogyny out there right now, too liberal and wait until the "Pocahontas" chants start.
Biden - too old and clearly leaking oil. (I'm still pissed he didn't run in 2016.)
Buttigieg - like him a lot, but as noted, America is not ready for a gay couple in the WH


Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
huckleberry

Posts:558

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11/06/2019 04:12 PM
For me...

Kamala - liked, but has been one note and her pandering needs work as it appears inauthentic
Beto - too immature, no charisma in debates, stilted, nothing substantive to offer at this time
Buttigieg - like him, but has only pointed out problems with other candidates, not solutions - which I understand is necessary to stay viable in the debates, and agree that sadly the US is not ready for a gay couple in the WH
Booker - possible VP material IMO
Klobuchar - will receive much of the criticism that Hillary received, doesn't inspire me
Biden - totally agree that he should have run in 2016, way too much baggage/skeletons, doesn't look healthy
Sanders - love him. a moral human, been walking the same walk for some time, doesn't change his opinion/direction with the polls, maybe too old, but doesn't act it. a balancing, young VP would help
Warren - she is my pick at this point. energetic, she has a plan ; ) inspiring, progressive, another humanist, likes S&M!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/06/2019 04:50 PM
I think Warren has run a smart campaign overall....her "I have a plan" mantra has gone over well (even when she didn't have a plan) and people are listening to her. Sticking around for hours on end are giving her a sense of approachability that she lacked before.

But I think she really shot herself in the foot with her Health Plan....$50 Trillion dollar plan with a $20T tax hike? Good luck selling that to the masses.

If she would pivot a bit more towards the middle, her chances would be much better...but she is letting the progressive wing push her further and further to the left, which IMO, is not good.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
huckleberry

Posts:558

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11/06/2019 05:50 PM
"If she would pivot a bit more towards the middle, her chances would be much better...but she is letting the progressive wing push her further and further to the left, which IMO, is not good."

I'm surprised to hear you say that ; )

Yeah, it's a shame that the masses can't understand basic math.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/06/2019 06:24 PM
Again, this is not about what policies I want / support.....my only concern is defeating Trump. If I thought moving to a far-left agenda would ensure victory, I'd advocate for a candidate that made Marx look a conservative.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/06/2019 08:42 PM
Yes a bright new morning here in VA, good news, but no where near enough. Once again just my opinion: if the Dems come to their senses and get Bullock on the podium and on the ballot, they will win, likely with a smack down that will have Trump and his MAGA sycophants ranting on their keyboards while they suck their thumbs, and the US moving forward at a stable rate. But Bullock is presently frozen out, because he is here now, not where a big block of Dem regulars think we should be. Regardless of your leanings, please do check this guy out.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/06/2019 10:05 PM
Hahaha LSD first guy I actually had to look up. That said, I like his background and some of his stances and initiatives. Good that he went after Biden on the SuperPAC issue.

Although they come at it from different angles (pragmatic governing versus lofty plans) I see a lot of common ground between Bullock and Warren. Their end goal is basically same, a pragmatic form of capitalism to replace the current predatory form, income equity and affordability. These two could be a mighty pair if they found each other. Warren has enough progressive credentials to woo the Sanders crowd (even though she is far more of a capitalist than Sanders) while Bullock has the leverage to woo the Conservatives.

Meanwhile Sanders can continue to occupy the left corner to keep everyone honest. He can be rightfully proud on having initiated and steered the conversation on key items.

Bullock path to nomination through Iowa...not tried since Jimmy. Your last good and descent president.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/07/2019 08:39 AM
Carter was (and is) undoubtedly a good man....arguably the best man to occupy the WH in the last 100 years.

He was not, however, a good president. What made him a good man made him ill-suited to the job, honestly.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.
79pmooney

Posts:2316

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11/07/2019 11:26 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

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11/07/2019 11:26 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

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11/07/2019 11:30 AM
damn!
79pmooney

Posts:2316

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11/07/2019 11:31 AM
damn!
79pmooney

Posts:2316

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11/07/2019 11:33 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

--
11/07/2019 11:33 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

--
11/07/2019 11:36 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

--
11/07/2019 11:36 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

--
11/07/2019 11:37 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

--
11/07/2019 11:37 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

--
11/07/2019 11:38 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

--
11/07/2019 11:39 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

--
11/07/2019 11:41 AM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/07/2019 09:35 AM
A case can be made that Jimmy Carter has been our greatest ex-president. By that I mean what he has done since leaving the white house.

By no small margin, IMO.  Much of what he has done has flown completely under the radar (at lest in this country).  Yes, his role in Habitat for Humanity is well known.  There was the time he was sent to oversee an election (Panama?) and give it the stamp of approval.  Oops!  You don't send Jimmy Carter to approve corrupt elections.

His quiet victory, virtually eliminating the Guinea worm in humans.  He did this through his Carter Foundation, a pharmaceutical company that he convinced to make and donate the vaccine for and a company that made well digging equipment.  The foundation went to communities in Africa. taught the women how the parasite lived and spread (larvae in the pooled water they were drinking) had wells dug so clean water was available and administered the vaccines for those afflicted.  Their efforts brought the curse of the worm (which grows to several feet inside the bodies of living humans) from decimal places well beyond the thousands to a few hundred cases world-wide.  I find it funny that Carter fully "got" that for this to work, they had to teach the women, that teaching this to the men was simply wasted effort!

His book "A Call to Action: Women, Religion, Violence and Power" is a powerful and very disturbing read.  I went to hear him talk about it at Portland's iconic bookstore.  Turned out he wasn't going to talk, just sign the books.  Well, I was there so I bought one and got in line.  Roughly number 600 of a thousand.  Hours later when my turn came, a shrunken old man scribbled his signature in my book without ever looking up.  I could be disappointed,  Instead I felt honored to be in the presence of perhaps the humblest man I will ever meet.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

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11/07/2019 12:02 PM
Bah! My internet provider bogging down as I posted. Didn't "copy" the text just in case. Bogged down again after I edited a couple of posts, then I was outside the 15 minute Edit window.

Lesson? The phone company keeps sending me these not-so-subtle messages that I should switch to ComCast, the only other provider in the area. Or go satellite. I have no desire to go satellite and will not sell my soul to ComCast. (I wish Frontier could weasel its way in here.)

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:2316

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11/07/2019 12:03 PM
And even that post didn't go well.  I'm going off to clean the garage. 
jookey

Posts:188

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11/07/2019 03:41 PM
This is quite the discussion. 7 pages and no real arguments (ok, many of the pages are due to Ben's service provider). I don't really believe in the anyone but Trump mentality. I agree that he may be a DB and should probably stop with the social media. I'm from Massachusetts, and I cannot see myself voting for EITHER Bernie or Warren. I don't care for either and would pull the lever for the current administration (I'd be holding my nose as I did so). Hey, don't dispair, I'm in MA. You could put a circus clown in the election with a (D) after the name and they'd win MA, so my vote doesn't mean much. Personally, I think Biden has the best shot. He can take it and roll with the punches. Mayor Pete is my favorite. Many say that his lifestyle is an issue. I could care less. I think his problem is lack of experience. Mayor in Indiana... He is too young and needs to beef up the resume. Use this to leapfrog to Gov or Sen, or a cabinet position. You'll be ready in about 8 years to mount a serious challenge. Klobuchar could be a good candidate, but hasn't really gotten anyone excited. She lacks the "it" factor. I guess we shall see what happens. It's gonna probably change a bunch of times between now and next summer once some of the players exit.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/07/2019 03:46 PM
What Ben said 15 times...

Carter is undeniably our greatest former President. A man of strength, humility and compassion.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/07/2019 04:53 PM
Oh, FFS....

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/07/politics/michael-bloomberg-alabama-2020-primary/index.html
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
huckleberry

Posts:558

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11/07/2019 06:34 PM
Carter is the only Christian I have felt truly walks the walk - and I am talking of everyone, not just past presidents. Except of course the fictional man-god Jesus ; )

Bloomberg... I'm with you CK... Oh, FFS!
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/07/2019 06:49 PM
This had been coming for awhile. It was him or Clinton 3.0, no?
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/08/2019 09:13 PM
Would all of your troubles with outsized role of early states in primaries and outsized role of couple thousand swing voters in a handful of states in general election go away if electors were allotted proportionally to vote in each state instead of winner takes all?

This would seem like an easy change. And isn't this already in place in some states? Maybe just one. Oh, and way to create a silence jookey.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/09/2019 09:32 AM
Yeah, I have advocated for a proportional allocation of EC votes for years. The reality is that there are good reasons for the Electoral College, but the “winner takes all” format essentially means tens of millions of votes essentially don’t count and you have outweighted emphasis on a few critical states. In many ways, it creates the result the EC was designed to avoid.

Nebraska and I think Maine currently have proportional allocation.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/09/2019 11:21 AM
I may have this wrong, but at least Maine’s version is not really proportional voting, but rather based on congressional districts, plus two to the winner. Not sure how Nebraska’s works.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/09/2019 12:05 PM
Perhaps not proportional, but not “winner take all”...

I would be OK with results being based on congressional districts or counties or whatever. I do think that a bonus of some number of EC votes would be critical, as Maine has.

If you are a Republican in IL, you might as well not even vote (or a Dem in Texas)...the state is a foregone conclusion and your vote will never even be a factor in the process. And that is wildly anti-democratic, IMO.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/09/2019 01:17 PM
We got the same winner takes all in Canada just more parties to choose from and more sensible parties overall.

My town is a solid union town so always votes for socialist candidate. Fortunately he's also the best candidate we have.

Nationally Justin won even though he lost the popular vote.

The Cons won the popular vote but their vote share is heavily centered in two provinces. Those two provinces just elected Conservative candidates with about 2 third of vote share but now have zero representation in government.

Winner takes all feeds us versus them and party tribalism. It also feeds into creating geographic us versus them and weakens the overall fabric of the country.
SideBySide

Posts:444

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11/09/2019 06:21 PM
I'll vote for a dead cat in a box before I'd vote for Trump. Warren or Sanders won't get the big issues through Congress, but won't isolate us from the world.
Dale

Posts:1259

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11/11/2019 02:32 PM
The E.C. rewards small states two ways-- disproportionately favors them in the presidential election AND in congressional representation. I'm ok with the latter but not the former. I want my vote to count whether I'm voting for a dogcatcher, congress(wo)man, senator, or president.

Like SxS, it won't matter who gets the Democratic nomination my vote for them is a forgone conclusion.
And a pox on the house of anyone who votes 3rd party or runs as such.

Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/11/2019 06:12 PM
And a pox on the house of anyone who votes 3rd party or runs as such


I’ll agree with that if you are in a swing state. In IL, I could vote 3rd Party (and did in 2016) because IL is going Blue, no matter what.

However, as noted, I am voting for the Dem candidate in 2020, no matter what. I want to officially record my opposition to Trump.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/11/2019 08:16 PM
Millions will join you.
That won't be enough unless the Dems get it right. Yours to blow, Dems.
Dale

Posts:1259

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11/11/2019 09:04 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/11/2019 08:16 PM
Millions will join you.
That won't be enough unless the Dems get it right. Yours to blow, Dems.


...as they did in 2016 by icing out Sanders and going with the throughly unlikeable Hillary whose very friends can barely tolerate her.
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/11/2019 09:17 PM
Yes, Bernie likely would have beaten Trump in 2016. But not in 2020. Next round Dems need a likable or semi likable who won't scare the centrists in a small handful of midwestern states. Love it or hate it, there it is. Steve Bullock fits the bill. Bloomberg? Don't know. Depends on how he presents himself, how he runs in those center right swing states that love their guns and are leery of abortion but not totally opposed, and don't particularly like Trump but have been willing to look past his behavior. All the rest is very important, but just noise in the big picture.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/11/2019 10:56 PM
Dang this sounds serious...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/jimmy-carter-in-hospital-ahead-of-procedure-to-relieve-pressure-on-his-brain-1.5356027
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/12/2019 07:12 AM
I am hoping that the fact the waited until this AM to do the procedure indicates that it is is not too serious. You’d think that if it was immediately life-threatening, they would have done it as an emergency procedure right then.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/12/2019 10:09 AM
It is serious.

Former Mass Gov Deval Patrick is considering getting in the Dem race. He was governor of Mass a few years back.
huckleberry

Posts:558

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11/12/2019 10:17 AM
I do find it interesting how some of you state your opinions as though fact ; )

Your mommies loved you too much.
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/12/2019 12:59 PM
In my opinion, Deval Patrick was Governor of Mass.
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/12/2019 12:59 PM
I take your point, but please avoid personal insults on this forum.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/12/2019 03:03 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/12/2019 10:09 AM
It is serious. .


I probably phrased that poorly. yes, i realize it is serious...however, the fact that they admitted him yesterday but were not planning on a procedure until this AM perhaps indicates that it was not an immediate emergency as in "Get him in the OR, NOW!!!"
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/12/2019 04:54 PM
Carter reportedly recovering with "no complications" from his surgery.

Good news.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/13/2019 08:52 PM
Hear hear...

"I don't agree with Warren's vision for our health care system, but I admire that she has clearly and credibly laid out that vision and that she sought out the opinions of those who may disagree with her to provide independent validation of her numbers. That's the kind of rigor we should expect from all of our presidential candidates."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/13/perspectives/elizabeth-warren-medicare-for-all-taxes-middle-class/index.html

Rigor sadly isn't going to win the election but it should be one of the main measuring sticks for any candidate. Few would pass.
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/13/2019 09:10 PM
From a strictly medical perspective, so far and hopefully going forward there will be no complications from his burr hole or similar. That said, it is highly likely that there will be further reduction of his mental capacity. One may nitpic about what is serious. This is not he will die right now, but this is serious. Expectations have been appropriately low. I wish him and his family the best.
Back to the 2020 race: I stand by my assertions that Trump has a lane to win with the current Dem candidates and our electoral college. And that he would be annihilated by a Dem closer to the center who is acceptable to the handful of center right voters in the handful of swing states that elected the current occupant and would be pleased to vote otherwise if a candidate from the Dems was acceptable to them.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/19/2019 09:04 AM
Interesting read

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/11/electoral-college-racist-origins/601918/
79pmooney

Posts:2316

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11/19/2019 02:12 PM
OC, good read. Sobering. That should be taught in school. Along with the fact that the "men" referred to in the Declaration of Independence is the subset of humans that are white, male and land owners. The compromises of the Constitution were to ensure that definition stayed intact.

I am one that believes that slavery and how it shaped our nation should be taught throughout our school years. Likewise that all its lingering consequences should be out on the table and openly discussed.

I grew up in a privileged family from Boston, I was under the illusion for many years that we were the "good guys", a Union officer being in my family line and the Underground Railroad being close. Then I read about the Lowell cotton mills, the start of our industrial revolution where, yes, the workers were treated well (by standards of the day). But those mills made the Lowell family and other investors from Boston, almost certainly including my family, very rich on the backs of cheap slave labor of the cotton growing South.

I have also had my eyes opened to the extent that the New England states I am from engaged actively to support the institution of slavery. Distilling rum, building ships, running fleets of ships - the slave triangle. Send the ships to Africa loaded with rum to sell. That money buys slaves that are then shipped in the same holds that had just carried barrels of rum to the Caribbean where they are sold and sugar is loaded to be brought north to be made into that rum.

As a kid, we used to spend a week every summer on Narragansett Bay. I remember going into Bristol, this perfect little town of immaculate buildings made from huge slabs of granite. Now I know the wealth to afford such grand buildings came in large part from the slave trade. No, not the dirty hands of actually buying, selling and shipping people. No, the perfect clean hands work of providing the money, reaping far more in return.

Our dirty little secret. The secret all "men", to this day. get to benefit from. Let's get it out there and talk. Nothing changes until we can talk about it. And yes, it will be very uncomfortable.

Ben
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/20/2019 08:52 AM
Oh my.....Sondland tossing both Rudy and Trump under the bus right now.

BIG TIME.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
thinline

Posts:274

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11/20/2019 01:37 PM
Yep, but the GOP talkers are still saying "nothing to see here folks, move along." Remarkable but on the other hand, expected.

When I see this $4it happening I think back to Lindsey Graham saying that if Trump got the GOP nomination he would destroy the party. Looks like Lindsey should have believed himself back than.
Dale

Posts:1259

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11/20/2019 02:32 PM
And how long before Donnie-boy throws Rudy under the bus?

"Never actually met him. He was a low level staffer, loose cannon that was just looking out for himself. Sad. Biggly. Covfefe."

It is amazing how is base has not abandoned him... freaking amazing! Guess he was right about shooting someone in the middle of 5th Ave and not losing support. Not far from Edwin Edwards and his "The only way I can lose this election is if I'm caught in bed with either a dead girl or a live boy."

Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/20/2019 02:57 PM
It is amazing how is base has not abandoned him... freaking amazing!


it really isn't...the GOP long ago became a Cult of Personality, eschewing principles and traditional conservative stances to curry favor with Trump.

Ballooning deficits? Meh.
Cozying up to dictators? Sure.
Congratulating China on 70 years of Communism? Sure, why not.
Family values? Let's embrace a serial adulterer who bangs porno stars and Playboy Bunnies.

That said, Rudy is definitely fooked. Sondland clearly said Trump never told him anything directly and that it all went through Rudy. Trump will toss him under the bus before the driver even gets his keys out.

ETTD.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
thinline

Posts:274

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11/20/2019 03:13 PM
The Ballad of Gordon and Rudy (sung to the tune of Folsom Prison Blues)


I hear that bus a'comin'
it's a'comin' down the track
Trump tossed me right under it
now it's cruising on my back.
Now I'm stuck in Folsom Prison
and time keeps draggin' on.
And now I rue the day,
that I sucked up to Don.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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11/20/2019 03:30 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 11/20/2019 02:57 PM
That said, Rudy is definitely fooked. Sondland clearly said Trump never told him anything directly and that it all went through Rudy. Trump will toss him under the bus before the driver even gets his keys out.

ETTD.


Plausible deniability? Been there, done that. Reagan - Iran Contra. Definitely impeachable otherwise: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/7/25/16020518/trump-iran-contra-reagan-parallels-impeachment

You guys sure now how to pick em'.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/20/2019 03:33 PM
Impeachable, but can't get a conviction. There is just enough wiggle room for the GOP to let him skate during a Senate trial.

Which was always the inevitable outcome. The only thing that matters if there is enough evidence to come out to get the critical swing voters to fully see how corrupt this administration is. That is the only thing I want out of this impeachment process....he'll never get removed. I just want people to vote the fooker out.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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11/20/2019 04:21 PM
So instead censure him. The senate will have to face that. It will be like a big rotting fish at McConnell’s doorstep that if ignored will just stink worse. And that may deflate some of Trump’s rabid fans, who won’t get their “see I told you so” resolution.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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11/20/2019 04:36 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 11/20/2019 04:21 PM
So instead censure him. The senate will have to face that. It will be like a big rotting fish at McConnell’s doorstep that if ignored will just stink worse. And that may deflate some of Trump’s rabid fans, who won’t get their “see I told you so” resolution.


I'd be good with that strategy.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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12/03/2019 05:26 PM
Kamala harris dropped out.....crap. I really liked her. I would paid a lot of money to see her debate the Orange Muffin.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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12/03/2019 11:43 PM
And my guy Bullock never was in the race. Trump is smiling.
smokey52

Posts:326

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12/18/2019 09:02 PM
Impeached! We all knew he was impaired (a different fruit). tRump is truly unhinged. We can only hope for a large rational turn-out as the 2018 Congressional elections. It would be hard to believe that the (rotten-to-the-) core tRump support has increased.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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12/20/2019 05:55 PM
Impeached, but will never be convicted unfortunately.

I was hoping enough evidence would come out in the hearings and Senate trial to finally unmask the traitorous bastard, but since Moscow Mitch is determined to make a mockery of the process, my guess is that getting impeached will actually help him next November.

But regardless of outcome, it was the right decision to impeach him. I like the fact that Pelosi has not agreed to yet send the articles of impeachment over to the Senate....let him dangle in the wind as long as possible. Not only will it keep him focused on the impeachment, it will keep him unhinged.



Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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12/20/2019 06:52 PM
Agreed. Impeachment was needed. The offense was too blatant. In fact I'd make the point that one of the reasons you folks got saddled with Trump to begin with is because Reagan (Iran Contra, that damn plausible deniability) and W (the Iraq lie worthy of a war crimes tribunal) were not impeached for much greater offences creating a situation in which anyone can basically just do about anything and get away with it, heck even get elected president or be re-elected while being impeached.

At same time as the Trump impeachment the Afghan papers also popped up which show that various administrations across two decades basically lied through their teeth about the state of the war. So Trump is a bad guy, but who at the levers of power can really stand in judgement of him?

Trump will keep his voter base in next election no problem. His base were looking simply for a hand grenade to be lobbed into the political establishment. He's delivered 100% on that promise, one might argue even better than that.

A good read:
https://theweek.com/articles/885088/trump-drama-about-whole-lot-weirder
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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12/20/2019 06:54 PM
Another good read which provides a script for how the coming year will play out if nothing changes.

"If Biden is nominated in 2020, Trump is going to repeat the formula that made Hillary Clinton's emails the dominant story of 2016. He'll say "BIDEN UKRAINE CORRUPT" 90 billion times, and the New York Times political reporters with Both Sides brain poisoning will helplessly validate the narrative."

https://theweek.com/articles/884677/democrats-are-sleepwalking-into-biden-disaster
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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12/20/2019 07:40 PM
"There you go again" worked pretty well for the Gipper. Not sure Biden has those chops.
BTW, did you watch how Macron played 45 on Nato recently? Macron observed that NATO was on life support or something similar and Trump fell for the reverse psychology just like a good 5 year old and came to NATO's defense, just to be contrary.
45 should be 4-5, as in 4-5 year old.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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12/20/2019 09:32 PM
That wasn't reverse psychology by Macon. It was a specific criticism of Turkey and US on Syria as going against NATO interests. In his own childish manner of speak Trump in fact has been on point in terms of "what are you going to do about it" and "pull your weight" one of few areas I agree with him. Europe have historically let US do all the dirty work and pull the financial cart to keep NATO rolling.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/03/trump-macron-brain-dead-nato-remarks
smokey52

Posts:326

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01/29/2020 09:31 PM
Redux: Watching the Senate impeachment hearings -- How can the Republicans defend and support the orange turd? AD defends the abuse of power? Turtle Power! Mitch will acquit.
Dale

Posts:1259

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01/30/2020 10:25 AM
It was a forgone concluding they'll acquit. No way that 67% of the senate with 53 R's will vote to remove the orange buffoon from office.

The moral gymnastics those clowns are doing to justify the blatant abuse of power in amazing.
At her peak Olga Korbut lacked that level of flexibility.

When I can put my disgust aside it's a fascinating window into a constitutional process that hopefully is a once-in-a-lifetime event.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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01/30/2020 11:06 AM
Not a first, not a last. Good read. You're welcome.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/02/03/the-last-time-democracy-almost-died?fbclid=IwAR1uVu3Jy5RVjWUXTJWC0Y5PsN1jS3Wjfb-KYXT4p1mmrDWy6axhxenxYQ8
79pmooney

Posts:2316

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01/30/2020 12:17 PM
Thanks OC. That was quite a read. Both sobering and hopeful.

I was just back in Boston, the city of my childhood. I moved to across a narrow estuary from Oakland, CA in 1980. And sensed right away that the relationship between whites and blacks in Oakland was fundamentally different from the old, deep divide in Boston. (I was aware of that divide since I was 12 and my mom took us kids to see the famous statue of Colonel Robert Gould Shaw and his Massachusetts 54th troops around him. Mom told us that we were related, that he died leading those troops into battle and that he believed those troops were as good men as any on earth. From that day, I "saw" how the descendants of the slaves the 54th went to free were treated in the city the 54th came from. (And the real irony: the living link between Col Shaw and myself lived in wealthy Brookline, maybe a mile as the crow flies from the inner city ghetto of Roxbury.)

It would be years before I "got" that Oakland was the huge beneficiary of the Black Power movement that started there, lasted longer than in any other city and made fundamental changes. I did see right away that in Oakland, if you could do your job, position or calling well, you were respected; that color didn't matter. (And as a cyclist - that I could ride through the inner city section between Alameda where I lived and Berkeley relatively safely. If I flatted, well I might get beat up and my bike stolen, but it would because of the $$ value of the bike. In Boston it would be because I was hated. The bike $$ value would just be a plus. (I never, ever rode through Roxbury.)

I just spent a week with my siblings (to clean up family affairs now that both parents have passed), staying with two of them, both in the city proper. Spent a good portion of my time in blue collar neighborhoods, both white, mixed and black. Very encouraging. Yes, Roxbury is still Roxbury. I got lost in there trying to get from the airport to my sister's in Jamaica Plain (and lost in Boston is very, very lost!) One way streets everywhere with no apparent plan and laid out long before anyone ever dreamed up this concept that we call automobiles). I didn't stop for directions. (8pm, dark, being white and not physically imposing.) But later, outside the ghetto, I saw and felt a new Boston where in enough of a crunch, white and blacks just might roll up their sleeves and work together.

I wonder if just maybe, this administration might be the "event" that brings a unity this country has not seen since the depression and the WPA. (Another term of Trump might just be the best thing that has ever happened to this country. Weird concept!)

Ben
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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01/30/2020 04:08 PM
Ben, if I am reading your post correctly, it sounds like you just had a big loss.

Hope you are doing well.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

Posts:2316

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01/30/2020 09:47 PM
CK, the loss was my mom last August. My dad passed 10 years ago. Yes, the sadness is still there. Plus now the sadness of knowing the home of my childhood and root all my life will be sold and virtually certainly the house torn down. It was tough leaving it Monday; until I thought that this old homestead that my dad had built and did so much work on and around now gets to be dream made real for another couple and family.

The circle of life. It's becoming quite real. I'm perhaps two decades from my natural end. Not far away at all.

And yes, I am doing quite well. Lot's of feelings but feelings aren't the end.
Dale

Posts:1259

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01/31/2020 09:29 PM
"now gets to be dream made real for another couple and family. "

That's quite touching, Ben. When I sold the only home I really loved (15 wooded acres, a mile of trails, deer, turkey, persimmon trees, walnuts, creek... beautiful) I had some melancholy thoughts and wrote a note to the new family wishing them all the happiness I had experienced in the years I lived there. Every time I drive south from Kansas City past my little former home town it brings back happy memories.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3060

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02/02/2020 10:17 PM
. Every time I drive south from Kansas City


You know that is in Kansas, right?

#Bufoon45
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Dale

Posts:1259

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02/03/2020 07:55 AM
bwahaha.... fookin' idiot!

Too bad Pompeo didn't ask -45 to find Ukraine (or Missouri) on a map.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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02/16/2020 10:17 AM
This is an important read.

https://urbanandracialequity.org/2020presidentialscorecard/?fbclid=IwAR2_Wf4Bhb_qDoKRAfEHKd1JinO2DAvIcR4uYaX2m7OUbvS9v8cmFxmj6Ic

A lot of fine print in the read more section of Buttigiegs score.
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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02/17/2020 10:20 AM
For OC in particular and anyone else who might be interested.
Article about the Dutch Embassy honoring veterans of an American all black WWII tank battalion that helped liberate the Netherlands 75 years ago.

https://www.richmond.com/eedition/richmond/page-a/page_5354f505-cadf-5d6a-b1d6-2237e7848d62.html

Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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02/17/2020 05:21 PM
“You must be a digital subscriber to view this article “
longslowdistance

Posts:2035

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02/17/2020 11:16 PM
Sorry, you are right. It's a washington post article, but again by subscription. They make it hard to cut and paste, alas. Bottom line is that gracious and grateful Holland remembers the black soldiers who performed more than admirably.
Orange Crush

Posts:2803

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02/18/2020 02:26 PM
I managed to get around the subscription firewall in incognito mode.

Interesting, while most liberation emphasis is on area around rivers, these guys came in on south in September 1944, close to where I grew up. I've biked past that cemetery in Margraten many times. Amstel Gold race also passes by there.

From the article, in May 1945 they were north of where I grew up, in Venlo. Which means they possibly took part in the big tank battle in area of my home town (Sint Joost) around Jan 1945 (my mom who was 4 at the time was hiding out in basement of their farm) although the wiki lists mostly Brit and Canadian troops.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blackcock#H%C3%BCbner's_defeat_at_Sint_Joost

As kids we spent a lot of time playing "war" in the shell craters and trenches in forest around our town. I also dug up some unspent munition in our back yard at some point.
smokey52

Posts:326

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02/18/2020 08:35 PM
Lots of these news sites allow a few free reads. They keep count by cookies. If you wipe out your cookies, you can reset the count.


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