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Horner's VAM
Last Post 09/24/2013 07:43 PM by bob etzler. 62 Replies.
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Entheo

Posts:317

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09/20/2013 11:26 AM
Posted By Justin jmdirt on 09/20/2013 11:02 AM
You still haven't answered "so what if he is rider 15...what does that have to do with the 2013 Vuelta?"
that's exactly what daniel benson is trying to figure out, and horner is being evasive!!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1052

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09/20/2013 12:05 PM
You still haven't answered "so what if he is rider 15...what does that have to do with the 2013 Vuelta?"


1) It indicates past PED use and establishes a pattern of behavior.

2) Combine that with a performance which flies in the face of what we know about human performance (i.e. performance begins to decline as you age), and it raises questions

3) Combine THAT with the fact that he never showed the ability to contest (let alone win) a GT and it raises even more questions.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
jmdirt

Posts:681

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09/20/2013 12:09 PM
I got ya, you are spinning...and I bit.

I'll still try to have a reasonable discussion:

Benson is trying to determine if CH is rider 15. Benson didn't get the chance to follow up because CH didn't give him an answer but I doubt that Benson was trying to connect 2005 with 2013.

I just can't see USADA not pursuing CH if LL said that "Horner said he used EPO in 2005". If it was a Euro guy USADA can't pursue him, doesn't want to get into an international mess, so they black the name out.

I will repeat again though, I am by no means saying that CH never doped.
jmdirt

Posts:681

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09/20/2013 12:18 PM
Cosmic,

Thank you for an answer. Those are valid discussion points (we discussed them a few days ago;]).

IF CH is rider 15 he used EPO to recover from an injury in 2005. CH was injured this year and could have used dope to recover this time too. I'm not sure if two (known) times establishes a pattern but its at least a flag. As we discussed before, I don't completely agree with you on points two and three, but they certainly raise another flag.
jrt1045

Posts:361

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09/20/2013 12:22 PM
re: You still haven't answered "so what if he is rider 15...what does that have to do with the 2013 Vuelta?"


My boss is passing this way, I can't type now - I don't want to get fired! Gotta go!
Orange Crush

Posts:1161

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09/20/2013 12:27 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/20/2013 12:05 PM
You still haven't answered "so what if he is rider 15...what does that have to do with the 2013 Vuelta?"


1) It indicates past PED use and establishes a pattern of behavior.

2) Combine that with a performance which flies in the face of what we know about human performance (i.e. performance begins to decline as you age), and it raises questions

3) Combine THAT with the fact that he never showed the ability to contest (let alone win) a GT and it raises even more questions.



So 2013 will be the story of the Chris&Chris 1. Sky hired Leinders; pretty sure they full well knew what he was doing at Rabo. It signals intent. 2. He flies up hills at speeds previously only achieved by guys doped to the gills. 3. Prior to 2011 he never showed any ability to contest GTs. What about that magical 2010-2011 transition going from holding on to motorbikes to winning?
Entheo

Posts:317

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09/20/2013 12:27 PM
one more time: USADA went after US Postal's "systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy"... horner didn't ride for US Postal, nor for Discovery. he was an itty bitty fish orthogonal to the investigation and travis had plenty on his plate taking on armstrong.

if horner would have placed in the vuelta where he normally places (or abandons) in GTs then the whole rider 15 thing would be moot anyway. but since he happened to win at age 41, it kinda renewed interest, hence the connection, n'est-ce pas?
jmdirt

Posts:681

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09/20/2013 12:51 PM
Entheo, I must admit that I'm disappointed.
jmdirt

Posts:681

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09/20/2013 02:48 PM
Cosmic,

You might want to also add:

4) why would CH do two Trans Atl flights between the Vuelta and Worlds.

as long as we're questioning things.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1052

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09/20/2013 03:34 PM
I dunno if I care much about two trans-Atlantic flights. Certainly not enough to label them "suspicious"....dude just won the 3rd biggest stage race in the world. I canc ertainly understand wanting to go home and see friends / family.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
jmdirt

Posts:681

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09/21/2013 09:18 PM
Here's a different perspective: "If Hornydog is clean his Spain win is outf*ckinstanding especially for an old dude. If he's smokin, thank f*ckin god for the "fountain of youth". F*uck cycling, I wan't some of that sh*t to help me get stuff up flights of stairs every day."

This is quoted/paraphrased form the cross-town mover who delivered some family antiques today. After he saw my bikes we started chatting. He said he was a BMX pro who also did some crits in the '70s and "kinda follows the big races."

He's on to something. I don't want to win races any more, I just want to feel young again. Well, I do like winning still and if I felt younger I would want to win more races so there goes that nasty cycle. But I like his thinking. Do they smoke CERA?!
bobswire

Posts:290

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09/24/2013 10:51 AM
Posted By Justin jmdirt on 09/21/2013 09:18 PM
Here's a different perspective: "If Hornydog is clean his Spain win is outf*ckinstanding especially for an old dude. If he's smokin, thank f*ckin god for the "fountain of youth". F*uck cycling, I wan't some of that sh*t to help me get stuff up flights of stairs every day."

This is quoted/paraphrased form the cross-town mover who delivered some family antiques today. After he saw my bikes we started chatting. He said he was a BMX pro who also did some crits in the '70s and "kinda follows the big races."

He's on to something. I don't want to win races any more, I just want to feel young again. Well, I do like winning still and if I felt younger I would want to win more races so there goes that nasty cycle. But I like his thinking. Do they smoke CERA?!

I use the saying "you are what you eat" as a metaphor when people ask how I stay in good condition at my age. Actually it's more than that, I work at it diligently. It's a combination of eating, exercise and moderation. I don't lament about what I did in the 70's then use it to demean others because I'm now fat,slow and out of shape like some old "movers" we know.
No, I work at it everyday,I don't need any  Stinking CERA to get up stairs or climb mountains.
I don't understand why you would like the thinking of a guy in my age range (I'm 68) complain about their current condition then demean others who have worked to keep themselves it peak condition.

Entheo

Posts:317

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09/24/2013 12:23 PM
you're looking good there bob! but you need to lose the muscle mass on your arms & upper body if you expect to keep up with quintana, contador & co. on the climbs ;-)
jmdirt

Posts:681

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09/24/2013 02:25 PM
"I don't understand why you would like the thinking of a guy in my age range (I'm 68) complain about their current condition then demean others who have worked to keep themselves it peak condition."

-Who did I demean?
-I have been an athlete my entire life. Its a pretty rare day that I don't ride, run, hike, lift, ski or a combo of those.
-The mover was in great shape (56 years old).
-Really the two points in my sarcasm: its just cycling, who cares, and we all would like to feel little younger even if we are in better shape than 99% of the population.
bobswire

Posts:290

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09/24/2013 02:40 PM
JM I was not talking about you, if anything I respect your lifestyle ,of what I know of it. I was responding to the that movers statement you paraphrased, " F*uck cycling, I wan't some of that sh*t to help me get stuff up flights of stairs every day." I took that as demeaning Horners accomplishment as though a magic pill got him that win. You know as well as I PEDS will only get you so far, without the work you won't succeed in any athletic endeavor or succeed in a long healthy life for that matter.
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