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Parisotto on Horner's BP Numbers
Last Post 10/27/2013 03:20 PM by Joe Rockbottom. 47 Replies.
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Cosmic Kid

Posts:1113

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10/21/2013 10:05 AM
Nobody has taken away Horner's ability to earn a living, certainly not this article. HE amde the choice to roll the dice and see what happened in the Vuelta before agreeing to any new contract.

he was in contract limbo LONG before this article came out. The situation is of his own making.

Further, Parisotto is NOT saying Horner doped. He said there were some values which were odd / questionable and merited further investigation. Again, Horner put the info out there and as Shane noted, it is only responsible journalism to ask experts to weigh in on it.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
huckleberry

Posts:235

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10/21/2013 10:09 AM
Damn you all!

You hate America and Jesus...

And lycra.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1113

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10/24/2013 10:45 AM
Another "hit" piece on Horner, this time by Outside magazine. Seems the expert they talked to had pretty much the same concerns as Parisotto.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/Chris-Horner-Bio-Passport-Raises-Doubts.html?page=1
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
zootracer

Posts:295

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10/24/2013 11:46 AM
I guess the bottom line is, no one can excel in cycling anymore without being suspected of doping..which is sad, but that's what the sport has become.
stronz

Posts:307

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10/24/2013 11:46 AM
OK well that Outside mag piece definitely comes closer to a "hit" piece. Very incomplete and superficial. Really verges on irresponsible.
79pmooney

Posts:1130

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10/24/2013 12:09 PM
zoot, the flip side of that is new unwillingness to let the unbelievable go for fact, something many of us did for years. I'm not so sure that is bad.

Ben
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1113

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10/24/2013 12:37 PM
stonz, Curious as to why you think the Outside article is more of a "hit" piece than the velonation one? Seem fairly similar to me.....find expert, have them analyze the data that Horner put out there, report back on what they said.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
ShaneS

Posts:5

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10/24/2013 01:07 PM
I think one aspect of the Outside piece that perhaps some need to consider is this quote, as given to Velonews. Horner called on the cycling media to "[pay] the money to have a professional look at my blood results and then post to everybody on the web page about how clean my results are? Because I know my results are clean."

Everyone who claimed that the VeloNation article was a hit job need to consider that quote. We did precisely what Chris Horner said the media should do.
stronz

Posts:307

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10/24/2013 05:02 PM
CK -- the "analysis" of Hg alone is completely insufficient to support any sort of conclusion. No "expert" ever uses just one parameter to support a conclusion. The key findings at the bare minimum have to include an assessment of reticulocytes concurrently. i was hoping there would be a graph of the retics below the Hg. As it is there is a graph with four points on it. insufficient to draw any meaningful conclusion. Irresponsible reporting and highly irresponsible discussion by the expert. Parisotto's discussion was far more appropriate. All imo of course
steve

Posts:119

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10/24/2013 07:01 PM
"hit" piece...you guys are killin' me!
SideBySide

Posts:176

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10/24/2013 07:18 PM
Don't think that it is all of us.
I look at the data and it is suspicious to me, and I am not a doctor or expert. It is certainly not definitive, but suspicious. I'd love to think he was clean, and until real evidence comes up he should be treated as a legitimate winner.
Orange Crush

Posts:1192

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10/24/2013 08:55 PM
You won't hear the words hit piece from me (the questioning is certainly valid) but the analysis as presented in outside mag is lacking IMO.

The Hg analysis is fine and the rising levels towards end of Vuelta would tend to support their contention of blood manipulation. But if that is the case, then Reticulocytes should have trended down in last 2 Vuelta samples when Hg went up due to the supposed manipulation. So why don't they show us a blow up chart of the Reticulocytes results for the 4 Vuelta samples same way as they did for Hg? Why instead do they compare all 4 Vuelta samples to the remaining BP samples? At a minimum this is an inconsistent approach with the Hg analysis. At a maximum one might wonder whether they are hiding something cause the Vuelta Reticulocytes sample results do not match the expected trends? They are lower overall than the rest of the passport as the statistical analysis indicates but looking at the BP graph to me it seems the last 3 sample results are higher than the first sample (hard to make out). This would run counter to the hypothesis of blood manipulation sometime in the Vuelta.

Those are some specific questions I would like to see answered by the experts. As it stands I am left with feeling of a bit of statistical hocus pocus.
SideBySide

Posts:176

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10/25/2013 05:39 PM
BTW, from Chris' web site, the reticulocytes trended up, not down.
8/29 .0167, .39%
9/3 .0218 .54%
9/7 .0238 .55%
9/14 .0243 .56%

As an amateur analyst , it looks like his body was producing more Hg.
longslowdistance

Posts:680

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10/25/2013 06:06 PM
Which fits EPO type stimulation.
stronz

Posts:307

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10/25/2013 08:03 PM
normal reticulocyte percentage is in the 1-2% of blodd volume. ALL of CH's numbers are low. Why? do you think
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