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LA interview at CN
Last Post 11/14/2013 11:51 AM by Keith Jackson. 34 Replies.
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 11/07/2013 03:45 PM |
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Yes, as far as his actual doping, his 'transgressions' are/were the same as the others.
Three different things:
Doping case.
Ring leader case.
Bullying case.
Maybe these still add up to the same end result (lifetime ban), but to say that his doping was somehow worse because he was a bully, and the ring leader doesn't make sense to me. I'm not even necessarily saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I don't see it that way.
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CERV
Posts:151
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| 11/07/2013 05:17 PM |
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IMO
doping case = USADA. He should be getting the exact SAME punishment as every other rider
ring leader case = federal fraud/whistleblower case. If he loses this, he'll be paying ahuge price for being a ringleader. If they don't prove he was a ring leader, every doping cyclist on Postal should be held equally responsible, or it can't be seen as being impartial. As far as the UCI/USADA/WADA etc is concerned, they have no right or reasonable grounds to punish him any more for doping than any other cyclist even if he was a ring leader.
Bullying case = there's no laws against bullying, or against being an A-hole. Could argue he's paying for this in a social sense already with all the hate he is sure to feel being directed at him. His legacy is shot.
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 11/07/2013 05:27 PM |
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Posted By Justin jmdirt on 11/07/2013 03:45 PM
Yes, as far as his actual doping, his 'transgressions' are/were the same as the others.
Three different things:
Doping case.
Ring leader case.
Bullying case.
Maybe these still add up to the same end result (lifetime ban), but to say that his doping was somehow worse because he was a bully, and the ring leader doesn't make sense to me. I'm not even necessarily saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I don't see it that way.
I agree re: the bullying aspects....that just makes him an arsehole.
But as for the ringleader, that, IMO, is germane to his doping activities. He was not just a participant, he was actively trying to force others to dope, as well as distribute and traffic the stuff. That makes a MASSIVE difference in his punishment....and completely within the bounds of USADA to enforce.
I don't see how USADA has any oversight on him being a bully, except possibly as it pertains to him attempting to obstruct their investigations.
I will concede however that Hincapie getting 6 mos. is kinda BS, since there are a number of reports that he acted as a bit of an "enforcer" for LA. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 11/07/2013 05:58 PM |
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The ringleader aspect is going to get more attention with WADA.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/learning-lance-wada-adopt-code-183110216--oly.html
Good in theory - but don't expect anything in reality
''We've got a budget of not even the salary that Wayne Rooney earns at Manchester United,'' WADA director general David Howman told The Associated Press.
That's how important the doping fight is to the powers that be...talk about an uneven playing field. LOL! |
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BikeCzar
Posts:53
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| 11/08/2013 11:52 AM |
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Good interview. He seems honest and contrite. Good on him for accepting responsibility and moving the topic forward. I agree with him that his biggest offense was the misrepresentation to the cancer community which I believe he really does care greatly about and did a lot of good for.
Someday, he'll be forgiven. |
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jrt1045
Posts:363
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| 11/08/2013 12:03 PM |
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Accepting responsibility is a relative term, I would consider his interview rife with rationalizations too. Pretty brave interviewing like that with Daniel Benson but I still see him trying to control the narrative as it were. It is a start as he may have the beginnings of a conscience, hard to tell
Dude is bound for a long and lonely second half of his life as an asterick. I hope the woulda', shoulda', coulda' theme keeps him up at night - he deserves it for what he put people like Emma O'Reilly thru |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 11/08/2013 12:08 PM |
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Agreed w/ jrt - claiming that he is "honest" in that interview while still claiminig he was clean in 09/10 is laughable.
But he did say something which I agree with 100% - "No comeback, no problem." I said it then - his comeback would only give his enemies more ammunition / time to out him. It was (obviously) a MASSIVE mistake. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 11/08/2013 12:27 PM |
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I wonder if his "honesty" is tempered with "I still have several legal battles and issues so I need to be measured with my honesty".
I've never questioned his commitment to the cancer community. If he built LAF/Livestrong purely as a shield he would not have put in the effort he did. Plus, I will never forget how much the foundation did for my mom and dad when he was dying of cancer (more credit to the foundation than LA himself but still...). |
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Yo Mike
Posts:338
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| 11/08/2013 12:33 PM |
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+1 jrt
-7 will only be as 'contrite' as he has to be to get whatever he wants / thinks he can still salvage from a career characterized by deception and ruthlessness |
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Entheo
Posts:317
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| 11/08/2013 01:18 PM |
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| LA still clings to pushing the narrative that the Postal program wasn't that big of a deal, very conservative, not a grand conspiracy, yet WSJ journalists albergotti and o'connell and their esteemed publisher penguin group (> 1 billion sterling in revenue a year) chose to back up USADA's claim with their book subtitle "greatest sports conspiracy ever". |
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jrt1045
Posts:363
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| 11/08/2013 02:54 PM |
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guess the legal team of -7 is still wringing some billable hours out of this mess
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-attorneys-revive-accusations-against-novitzky
his team of lawyers made him rich and now they take it away |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 11/09/2013 11:23 PM |
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Part 4 of the CN interview is online, more truths and likely half truths, but certainly worth your time to read.
Maybe the topic upon which he's most honest is his acceptance that he's far from hitting bottom.
I appreciated the LAF part; jrt may also. Regardless of Armstrong's sins and flaws, the Foundation has done much real good. That will never change. Stones on his grave for that. I hope his desire to return to this cause is for honorable reasons, but it's reasonable to doubt his motives even there.
PS: If you just can't get enough (Actually this is some of the best no BS stuff I've ever seen on this whole affair - definitely worth your time to read):
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/09/the-armstrong-lie-alex-gibney-s-portrait-of-lance-as-a-liar.html
Some excerpts from the excellent Daily Beast piece:
How much do you think this scandal is about doping, and how
much is about this one guy and how he acted for those seven years he was
winning?
I think it’s more about the latter. It’s become a doping scandal:
"Oh my god, Lance Armstrong doped." But honestly, come on. That’s a
little bit like the Claude Rains moment in Casablanca.
What do you think is next for Lance Armstrong?
I think he has to find, in some way, to come to grips with what he's
done. And not so much what he's done on the bike. There can be endless
discussions about that, and I think there should be. I think erasing his
name is just bad history, and I think it lets cycling off the hook. An
asterisk or a line through his name would be better. He has to reckon
with the reason why people are so furious at him. And that’s going to
take some introspection, that so far, he's been unwilling to undergo.
Do you feel sorry for Armstrong?
No. I don't feel sorry for him. Lance Armstrong made a lot of money,
and in a way, rough justice was done. He went after a lot of people
that tried to tell the truth and told way too big a lie that encompassed
millions of people around the world. So, no, I don't feel sorry for
him. But I think everyone needs to keep the story in perspective. The
danger is that Lance Armstrong becomes an easy scapegoat, and people
don't learn the other lesson from this story—how money corrupts sports,
how institutionally things can go awry, how we can all get fooled
because of the power of sponsors and media to sell us things that may
not be true, but may be profitable. There are a lot of lessons here that
we don't learn that we pile on Lance Armstrong.
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Yo Mike
Posts:338
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| 11/10/2013 10:26 AM |
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/How much do you think this scandal is about doping, and how much is about this one guy and how he acted for those seven years he was winning?/
The 2 are inseparable, IMO. And I do not for one moment buy the 'Claude Rains' excuse - feigned, hypocritical shock about the 'revelation' of -7's doping. What is truly shocking is how effective his bullying was, how he co-opted the system, stole hope, beggared belief and silenced integrity. The chase-down of Simeoni was a prime example. The relative silence of the press in non-response to this shameful act was sickening.
Yes, there is plenty of need for self-reflection for all. Let's hope it happens. |
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CERV
Posts:151
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| 11/13/2013 12:08 PM |
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I wonder if WADA and USADA could actually produce a list of doping infractions that Armstrong violated, and the corresponding sentences each of those violations carries? Don't they have a list of rules somewhere and the standard penalties breaking each of those rules?
It really does seem like they make a lot of this stuff as they go along. It seems like, in the absence of any other agencies that could go after armstrong for his 'ringleader' stuff, they have taken it upon themselves to be the ones who make sure that Armstrong gets more of a dose of 'justice'. Sentences get doled out based on individual investigators whims.
It doesn't seem like it should be their place or their mandate as an anti-doping agency to do any more than investigate individual athletes' doping. In a system that is put in place to police something like this, the agency that does the investigating should not be the one that also does the sentencing.
I think armstong should be punished more than other riders on his team if he was facilitating and providing the drugs. I just don't think this should be in the realm of USADA/WADA. This gets into more of a sports ethics/ fraud type agency. Legislation in the sports goverining body that facilitates investigating and suspending managers/ owners, etc who facilitated/provided/encouraged drug use is more what this should fall under in my mind.
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 11/13/2013 12:41 PM |
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But the sports governing bodies have ceded control of that aspect to the WADA and its assorted national bodies (USADA).
Almost every major international governing body has signed onto the WADA code...no matter what the sport. So by default, WADA has control over those areas (as it pertains to doping). |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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