first confirmed case of mechanical doping - VeloNation - Cycling Forums, Bicycle Forums, Community Forums

Posts:4499

01/30/2016 02:19 PM
and the honor goes to Femke Van den Driessche at the cyclocross worlds. the english speaking media still show it as suspected but it is now confirmed http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/veldrijden/1.2559655

huckleberry

Posts:824

01/30/2016 03:35 PM
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/01/news/uci_detains_bike_cyclocross_worlds_394233_394233

zootracer

Posts:833

01/30/2016 03:53 PM
Interesting to see how this plays out.....

Posts:2881

01/30/2016 05:01 PM
She was a player all year but struggled in this race and stopped with a mechanical. Indeed!

Posts:3180

01/30/2016 05:13 PM
So testing "positive" takes on a new meaning. Bad news is that when the designers get smarter, they will all test negative. (Bad, I know) Ben

Posts:1767

01/30/2016 08:48 PM
Booooo, bad Ben, bad. Her bother got popped for EPO so cue up the theme music for All in the Family.

Posts:4499

01/31/2016 09:48 AM
Overall I think this mechanical doping is much easier to detect and won't become nearly as widespread as regular doping. Sounds like the UCI has managed to come up with quick and easy test.

Posts:1767

01/31/2016 09:59 AM
And a lot tougher to blame on your dog, mother-in-law, aliens... whatever. We keep shooting ourselves in the foot with these idiot cheaters.

Posts:3180

01/31/2016 11:12 AM
"I hear your bike tested positive." "Yeah, that no good brother in law wired wired the battery backwards." Ben

Posts:2881

01/31/2016 11:29 AM
Just curious about the process. Is it simply Pull the cranks and bottom bracket?? X-ray for the B-sample?

Yo Mike

Posts:338

01/31/2016 11:35 AM
It HAD to happen, sooner or later. For detection, they could use an IR thermometer gun http://www.amazon.com/EnnoLogic-Temperature-Non-Contact-Infrared-Thermometer/dp/B00IT0ODPQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1454261654&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=infrared+thermometer&psc=1

Posts:3180

01/31/2016 11:45 AM
Seriously - in defense of Greg Lemond, who I heard poo-pooed when he proposed a heat sensor at races to detect illegal power sources - I don't know what UCI used to detect the battery and motor; I suspect that battery was the give-a-way but developing or borrowing hi-tech means of quickly identifying such devices. Right on! Now punishment should extend past the rider to the mechanic (both suspension and fine) because he knows. And if he doesn't 1) why not? and 2) he has the means of finding those devices easily. There should be a means for exonerating a mechanic who finds the device after a race, reports the bike and rider and has that rider disqualified as there could be times when said bike leaves his hands after pre-race check and is altered before he sees it again post race. Along with that, probably wording that a rider must give his race bike back to the mechanic immediately post-race. I'm thinking out loud (keyboard click, click) and and not liking where this is going, Mechanic has collaborators clean-up the bike? No, just penalize the mechanic also. Then the mechanic is vested with keeping the bikes "clean" to protect his skin. Ben

Yo Mike

Posts:338

01/31/2016 03:59 PM
Is the truth out there? http://news.yahoo.com/cycling-officials-world-championships-theyre-185439942.html

Posts:809

02/01/2016 10:10 AM
If teams and mechanics and athletes accept this as a new shortcut, it's truly the end of serious bike racing as we know it. This is total crap. And a mockery of any hard working pros, should they exist.

Posts:1767

02/01/2016 10:31 AM
How far down the "punish the mechanic" road do we want to go? I worked the pit for a UCI race a time or two. All ll I did was spray off the bike between laps and make sure the pedal was at the 2:00 o'clock position. If the bike were mechanized should I get a fine and a ban? Granted me working the pit at Cincy and some team guy at worlds are a far cry from each other but how far down do we go? This whole topic makes me feel like puking. Such a magnificent sport. Such a bunch of clowns participating.

Posts:4209

02/01/2016 11:01 AM
I absolutely think you should be banned..... But can we stop calling this "mechanical doping"....it is just the dumbest term I have ever heard. Has nothing to do with doping and is just flat-out cheating (and arguably worse than doping since it completely changes what the sport is....)

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:809

02/01/2016 11:12 AM
yeah, mechanics, managers, sponsors, parents, groupies, etc should all be banned for ever. At least this all doesn't have to be managed according to the WADA code...

Posts:4499

02/01/2016 11:13 AM
Sounds like she used the poor (wo)man's version and technology has moved on... http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/electromagnetic-wheels-are-the-new-frontier-of-mechanical-doping-claims-gazzetta-dello-sport/

Posts:3180

02/01/2016 11:15 AM
CK, I don't think the term "mechanical doping" is that far off. Think about it. Doping - riders on the juice, mechanical doping - bikes on the (other) juice. No? Ben

Posts:4209

02/01/2016 11:28 AM
Posted By ChinookPass . on 02/01/2016 11:12 AM yeah, mechanics, managers, sponsors, parents, groupies, etc should all be banned for ever. At least this all doesn't have to be managed according to the WADA code... Excellent point, CP....hadn't thought about that. Punny, Ben....

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:3180

02/01/2016 11:41 AM
Mechanical doping: old news. 100 years ago, think racing airplanes. Every single one of those planes was doped to the gills. Airplane construction of the day - lacquered (doped) fabric stretched over wood frames. (Again - boo!!) Ben

Posts:3180

02/01/2016 11:42 AM
Duplicate post (Maybe I should upgrade to a better net connection.) Ben

Posts:2881

02/01/2016 11:55 AM
OC, do you think the Gazzetta article might be a hoax? It would take more than a wheel. Some sort of modification would be needed in stays or seat tube, with a lot of windings (= weight and volume) and electronic control. It would create some em noise, too - Maybe nearby HRMs would be messed up.

Red Tornado

Posts:159

02/01/2016 01:24 PM
Reading the dad's comments (wasn't her bike, it wasn't used, etc.) makes me wonder if could be established whether or not the bike had been used during the race? Was it clean, like "fresh off the team van" clean? Did it appear to have been ridden and then cleaned/sprayed off? I would think even if cleaned, you could find some fresh mud on it somewhere. But then you really don't know if was the rider in question or someone else on it; maybe pre-riding? Still prob not legal to pre-ride with a motorized bike. Also if we assume that Femke did, in fact, NOT ride that bike, then we have to figure out how a bogus bike made it onto the course/pits. Given that things can get hectic for team personnel, there still needs to be accountability for what equipment finds its way into the course, especially if said equipment is not legal. If this young lady did not ride the motorized bike, it should have not been in the pits. Since it's basically impossible to establish Femke's intent, the person/people who let that bike get to the pits need to be held accountable. There are so many other questions that come to mind as I write this, but I'll hold off for now.

Posts:1767

02/01/2016 01:47 PM
Even if the bike was not ridden it would be pretty easy to identify if it were hers-- saddle height, pedal brand, stem length, etc. and furthermore if I were looking at a lifetime ban I'd be specific as to whose bike it is. "Not MY bike, it's CK's bike! Look how aero it is... narrow bars, slammed stem, Zipp wheels. You know it can't be mine, I'd get blown all over the place if I ran wheels the deep. Don't ban me, ban HIM, 'fer gosh sake!"

Posts:4499

02/01/2016 01:48 PM
Posted By Frederick Jones on 02/01/2016 11:55 AM OC, do you think the Gazzetta article might be a hoax? It would take more than a wheel. Some sort of modification would be needed in stays or seat tube, with a lot of windings (= weight and volume) and electronic control. It would create some em noise, too - Maybe nearby HRMs would be messed up. The article is certainly short on physics and I am skeptical. But then again everyone was skeptical in 2010 too.

Posts:4209

02/01/2016 02:19 PM
Posted By Dale Dale on 02/01/2016 01:47 PM Even if the bike was not ridden it would be pretty easy to identify if it were hers-- saddle height, pedal brand, stem length, etc. and furthermore if I were looking at a lifetime ban I'd be specific as to whose bike it is. "Not MY bike, it's CK's bike! Look how aero it is... narrow bars, slammed stem, Zipp wheels. You know it can't be mine, I'd get blown all over the place if I ran wheels the deep. Don't ban me, ban HIM, 'fer gosh sake!" Hey, YOU were the mecanic in the pits....don;t try and blame ME after the fact. As for the idea that she "didn't ride" it, Basso (supposedly) never doped, but had the material to. Still got the same suspension. If it was brought into the race area by her or her team, then she is responsible for it and it is the same as if she actually rode it.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:1767

02/01/2016 02:41 PM
I'm not arguing for lenient action if it were someone else bike, but were it me I'd still go down swinging and out whoever owns the bike. Good for Wilier for going on record that they intend to sue over this as it taints the brand. Not sure it will go anywhere but good for them anyway. http://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2016/02/01/wilier-triestina-will-sue-belgian-rider-over-alleged-hidden?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook#.Vq_CdcfTRcJ And don't mistake me for a mechanic, I'm just a bike washer

Posts:3180

02/01/2016 02:59 PM
Dale, in other circles, washing makes you an accomplice. Laundering money. Hope those bikes weren't green. Ben

Posts:4499

02/01/2016 03:18 PM
Well it seems the supposed owner of the bike and friend of family stepped forward (ex pro without contract). He only uttered one sentence indicating it was his bike. The story the family came up with: he bought bike from Femke last year (that's why it has her initials) to ride with her brother (not sure if its the doper or the other brother)...friend needed the motor to keep us with brother (huh?!?; I guess this makes sense it you have to keep up with a doper). It just so happens he rode out there and then parked bike right among Femke's bikes (more huh?!?) Doping brother aside, the father is bankrupt and apparently father and brother are in trouble with law for theft of fowl. OK...this is Belgium, Europe's wild west so nothing should necessarily surprise.

Posts:625

02/01/2016 03:49 PM
I'll start motor pacing unsuspecting driver's on 35 mph roads a la Pee Wee Herman in Le Tour. Nick

Yo Mike

Posts:338

02/01/2016 03:55 PM
The family sounds like some real winners. The bike is in official hands, of course. Is the battery depleted? This would imply that the illegal device was actively used during the race, and that the rider knew how to operate the device.

SideBySide

Posts:444

02/01/2016 05:01 PM
I would say that if the battery is fully charged, then they probably intended to use it if she needed a boost.

Posts:4499

02/01/2016 05:11 PM
All of that is beside the point...If non-compliant equipment is found near a team or race, “within or in the margins of a cycling competition,” as the UCI rule states, it qualifies as technological fraud. So she's toast, period. It doesn't even matter if it was her bike or not. Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/02/news/explainer-prosecuting-technological-fraud_394361#KxzbfVWumGP6dIre.99

SideBySide

Posts:444

02/02/2016 01:24 PM
I agree OC. She should be out. I was simply addressing "intent."

Posts:625

02/02/2016 09:06 PM
When this was brought up before (about Cancellera maybe?) I thought it was some really off the wall stuff. Man, I have to tell you, this has really got me bummed. So ridiculous and pointless.

Posts:2881

02/03/2016 07:34 AM
I confess this episode has jogged my memory of Cancellara looking like he was shot out of a canon dropping Tomke a few years back, with no change in his pedal stroke. It was, simply, amazing. Not saying he was aided, but the whispers may rise to a murmur now.

Posts:4209

02/03/2016 10:13 AM
Article below has videos of the Cancellera "controversy" as well as that of Ryder's rear wheel spinning in what seems to be an unlikely manner after a crash. http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/02/news/cancellara-says-motors-in-bikes-are-an-old-story_394476

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:2881

02/03/2016 10:49 AM
The Ryder thing is stupid, no suspicion there unless wearing an aluminum foil hat.

Posts:4499

02/04/2016 12:58 PM
Fifteen very instructional minutes...of course you guys won't understand a thing. Two guys test out a motorised bike with Johan Museeuw, then use the bike in a big kermis race...no one has a clue that there's a "cheater" in their midst. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqhX8-dazOo

Posts:2881

02/04/2016 03:39 PM
I understood one thing: the motorized bike is named "Sparticus". I don't know if that was intentional, but I laughed out loud.

Posts:4499

02/04/2016 03:42 PM
Of course that was intentional...that's Belgian humor for you :-)

Posts:4499

04/17/2016 09:12 AM
About those magnetic wheels that we kind of laughed about a few months ago http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mechanical-doping-used-in-strade-bianche-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/ Brutal if this is true.

Posts:3180

04/17/2016 11:18 AM
Making Greg Lemond look not quite so dumb. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lemond-the-uci-should-use-a-heat-gun-to-detect-motors/ (May, 2016) Sadly, Greg Lemond is like Jimmy Carter. They both speak the truth about what they know and love (bicycle racing, humanity). That truth is way too uncomfortable for many at the top and if these troublemakers can be set aside, they will. (I thing the Panama elections during the Reagan administration was the last time the State Department used Jimmy Carter to oversee an election. He saw what was going on and said to the whole world what he saw. This was supposed to be a crowning achievement of spreading democracy.) rant, rant Ben

Posts:3180

04/17/2016 12:33 PM
A new meaning for "packing heat". Ben

Posts:625

04/17/2016 04:32 PM
Wow, wow, wow! Denial ain't just river in Egypt. I'm just floored. I shouldn't be. But I am. Nick

Posts:2881

04/17/2016 07:31 PM
I still don't get the rim magnets thing.

Posts:3180

04/17/2016 07:45 PM
lsd, I think they work something like this: You have (say) 4 magnets in the rim, spaced equally. In the seat tube under the seatpost is wiring that can be activated to become magnetic or turned off. The wiring pulses, turning on as the magnet approaches the rear brake, then off as it passed by the wiring. So each "on" pulse pulls the top of the rim forward. No moving parts, no noise. Ben

Posts:2881

04/17/2016 07:49 PM
So should be easily detected with the bike at the start line. And they have to lug that extra rotational weight, which is not infinitesimally trivial like a disc rotor - these magnets are way out peripherally. So I still don't get the rim magnets thing - for a long road race.

Posts:1767

04/17/2016 09:17 PM
I am hereby declaring the term "mechanical doping" null and void. Henceforth we shall call it as it really is, "Some arsehole racing a motorcycle in a bike race" Yes, it's more cumbersome to say but its accuracy cannot be dismissed.

Posts:625

04/18/2016 10:30 AM
I can definitely feel the difference with heavier vs. lighter tires. But I can feel a lot more of a difference, when back in junior racing days, I'd get a brief push to stay on the pace line. Those wattage numbers they're throwing around seem to me more akin to a push, than even rotating weight. Nick

Posts:809

04/18/2016 10:32 AM
"Some arsehole racing a motorcycle in a bike race" amen Dale

Posts:3180

04/18/2016 12:26 PM
Another fan of heat guns, Gianni Bugno, ex-pro, now a pilot who scans power lines with a heat gun looking for problems. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bugno-calls-on-uci-to-use-heat-cameras-to-detect-mechanical-doping/ The best part of using heat guns is that they are real time, ie showing what is actually happening on the course. Swapping bikes to avoid detection doesn't work. That recorded heat signature (assuming you simultaneously video record the rider's number) would be all you would need. Of course, this would lead to a bigger problem for UCI, conceding that Greg Lemond was right. Ben

Posts:2881

04/18/2016 12:27 PM
But not on all the time. There is only so much energy in a battery.

Posts:3180

04/18/2016 01:13 PM
Yeah, each cheating rider has probably an hour or less of juice. But say you had 4 guns on the course. One of two on the big climb or climbs. A couple located at a random points. That would make using your motor pretty risky. Edit: and of course, you could have one on an accompanying motorcycle. That would put a real damper on use. Ben

Posts:1767

04/18/2016 01:19 PM
A lifetime ban for the first offense is warranted. Come on people, quit ruining my favorite sport!

Posts:809

04/18/2016 01:22 PM
Yeah, after Flanders and Roubaix, I was kind of loving the sport again. Then I read about that masters d!ck in california and scanned through the motor stuff yesterday and am ready to turn it off for the summer.

Posts:4499

04/18/2016 04:45 PM
Posted By ChinookPass . on 04/18/2016 01:22 PM Yeah, after Flanders and Roubaix, I was kind of loving the sport again. Then I read about that masters d!ck in california and scanned through the motor stuff yesterday and am ready to turn it off for the summer. The best part of season is over anyways. Amstel Gold was fairly brutal to watch. http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/04/news/the-calm-after-the-storm_402425

Posts:4499

04/19/2016 05:09 PM
Another interesting angle... “This material can be triggered by your heart beats when you exceed a certain heart rate. In general, the limit is 160 beats which allows you to recover while your engine compensates. But like everything which is miniaturized, it is very difficult to detect.” http://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/gilberts-agent-there-is-evidence-that-motors-have-been-in-the-peloton-since-before-2010/