Horner's VAM - VeloNation - Cycling Forums, Bicycle Forums, Community Forums

Posts:447

09/13/2013 08:22 AM
6.83 W/kg...Anyone want to talk about this? Yeah it was a short climb, but still...

Posts:447

09/13/2013 08:22 AM
Here's the link. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gazzetta-dello-sport-scrutinizes-horners-power-data-at-the-vuelta

Posts:775

09/13/2013 08:58 AM
I don't want to talk about it. Don't let Cosmic see this...

Keith Richards

Posts:781

09/13/2013 09:48 AM
C'mon...their calculations are way over the top.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

Posts:4209

09/13/2013 10:06 AM
I really hate all the armchair power analysts trying to extrapolate what watts the rider were pushing. Unless you have the actual data, there is simply no way to know.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:447

09/13/2013 10:07 AM
I agree the numbers seem absurd.

Posts:775

09/13/2013 10:24 AM
Dang Cosmic saw it! ;] At least we agree on this though.

Posts:4209

09/13/2013 10:40 AM
Posted By Justin jmdirt on 09/13/2013 10:24 AM Dang Cosmic saw it! ;] At least we agree on this though.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:4499

09/13/2013 11:40 AM
Well of course the Italians would be scrutinizing Horner, their favorite son is going backwards :-) I agree, just on one climb these power analyses worth little, too many random factors. But when you do it Vayeur's way and start averaging over half a dozen climbs in a single GT it becomes more believable, the random factors will start cancelling out. The verdict on the Froomster in 2013 Tour was a yellow card. Still the most unbelievable performance of the year is you ask me (but I've missed the last two stages in Vuelta).

Posts:151

09/13/2013 11:50 AM
I don't know where they even get those numbers for VAM, which should be pretty straightforward to calculate, but appear out to lunch. http://www.climbbybike.com/profile_520/Pe%C3%B1a_Cabarga_Heras_profile.jpg Pena Cabarga starts at 26m, ends at 569m, and is 5.9km long. The story claims the last 4.9km were done in 16:40. At 1km, they would have been at 126m, according to the profile. 569-126=443m ascent in 16:40. That works out to a VAM of 1594m/hour. That's not a protour winning performance. Assume 4.9km is a typo, and they meant 5.9km, as that's what the actual climb is. Ifyou were to assume the entire 5.9km climb was done in 16:40, not just the last 4.9km, the ascent would then be 569-26-=543m. 543m climbed in 16:40 works out to a VAM of 1954m/hour. Either way, story is out to lunch somewhere......

Pits

Posts:6

09/13/2013 11:52 AM
Vam shmam.... stop the madness. They're all riding faster times on the same climbs than were recorded two and three years ago.

Posts:151

09/13/2013 12:04 PM
You realize comparing riders VAMs and comparing their timess for a given climb is exactly the same thing, right?

Pits

Posts:6

09/13/2013 01:12 PM
Yes, Cerv... I am aware it is a time factor that ignores context. And that is why no one takes it seriously.

Posts:447

09/13/2013 01:20 PM
I am very suspect of this metric as I really dont think there is a specific rate that a given rider climbs up hills. Just too mamny variables -- it even changes from hill to hill for the same rider. And not simply because of the grade. It changes due to the surface conditions, length of the climb, wind, equipment, etc. So I think it is possibly useful when you compare VAM for one rider using exactly the same equipment under exactly the same weather conditions. Possibly to learn what kinds of grades and equipment make that rider ascend fastest. i do not think it is useful to compare VAM amongst different riders using different equipment on different days on different hills. Nor do I think one can define a physiologic high limit. Anyone who has ever ridden up hills knows that some riders are really fast going up long 5% grade hills. Others kick ass on the really steep stuff -- 15-20% shorter grades. Their VAMs can range wildly.

SideBySide

Posts:444

09/13/2013 01:52 PM
If Horner is doping, based on this one climb, then anyone ahead of him must be doping better. Frankly it would not surprise me if he was doping, but making calculations on one climb is sort of silly. Do you always climb the same hill in the same time. Perhaps he is just better than the others right no. Someone has to be the leader after all. Could it be a 41 year old, who knows?

dkri

Posts:95

09/13/2013 03:23 PM
http://bikerackheads.blogspot.com/2013/09/is-chris-horner-doping-more-pseudo.html Written by a friend of mine.

formerly dkri

Posts:151

09/13/2013 04:46 PM
I am very suspect of this metric as I really dont think there is a specific rate that a given rider climbs up hills. Just too mamny variables -- it even changes from hill to hill for the same rider. And not simply because of the grade. It changes due to the surface conditions, length of the climb, wind, equipment, etc. So I think it is possibly useful when you compare VAM for one rider using exactly the same equipment under exactly the same weather conditions. Possibly to learn what kinds of grades and equipment make that rider ascend fastest. i do not think it is useful to compare VAM amongst different riders using different equipment on different days on different hills. Nor do I think one can define a physiologic high limit. Anyone who has ever ridden up hills knows that some riders are really fast going up long 5% grade hills. Others kick ass on the really steep stuff -- 15-20% shorter grades. Their VAMs can range wildly. Exactly right. Comparing VAM on two different climbs about as valid as comparing average speed on two different TT's on different days without taking into account terrain, length or conditions. Extrpolating power from any of those numbers aint gonna be even close to accurate. My point was that the quoted story didn't even get the maths right for their psuedo-science in the first place.

laurentja

Posts:122

09/13/2013 04:59 PM
I think a 42 y/o on top form can climb with the best, that's not unbelievable. I doubt normally he could continue to recover as well as guys 10 yrs younger, even though a long career as a stage racer has trained his body to recover. What is really leveling the recovery field is that the other top guys have all done a hard stage race already so are not as fresh physically and mentally. Also like Horner says himself, he knows any big race now could be his last if he gets injured again.

Pits

Posts:6

09/13/2013 05:19 PM
Yes, yes and yes.... So many factors it's all conjecture without actual data. And then... there are real factors that will affect an athlete's power output on any given day... apart from anything illegal. Interesting too that none of CH's detractors want to note the fact that he was the only rider in the Peloton climbing with the likes of Nibali and Froome in races leading up to this year's Giro and Tour before knee surgery put him out for the count. Given the circumstances leading up to the Vuelta, Horner comes in the freshest of any contender in the GC. That has to count for something and it is why I give him the benefit of the doubt. Kick ass tomorrow Chris... Can't wait to read the Monday morning headlines!!

Posts:775

09/14/2013 05:04 PM
One thing that I was thinking while watching the replay of the final few K is that CH looks like he is riding his ass off standing on the pedals most of the time. Contrast that with the known dopers who sat comfortably as they ride away and put minutes on everyone.

longslowdistance

Posts:2881

09/14/2013 06:59 PM
Like Pantani?

Posts:775

09/14/2013 08:25 PM
My memory sucks but I don't remember MP standing like CH. MP would dance on the pedals to open a gap and then sit and spin away (MP did stand more than most though). It might be the stage that LA "gifted" to MP, I remember both of them standing about half of the time but that wasn't SOP in those days.

Posts:48

09/16/2013 05:08 PM
I'd love for anyone twiddling his thumbs over the VAM question to try it at home. The VAM math is easy enough, and the prediction should be even more accurate when you're dealing with yourself, since you've got access to accurate weights and reasonable comparability of variables. I've now tried ten or twelves times to compare on-board data (SRM) with observational VAM calculations. The closest correlation put my actual measured performance far, far beneath the VAM evaluation for the exact same ride segment. The word "absurd" comes to mind. On the topic of comparisons in a general sense ... Let's say nearly everyone was doping in exactly the same way, with the same schedules and amounts, up until the year "X." Now let's say everyone stopped as of the year "X+1." What would we see? What would the racing look like, and how would it change? Even having been within the elite peloton during the period in which such changes are thought to have occurred, albeit in a more gradual way, leaves me far from convinced that I can see, let alone really understand, the differences "on the ground." Moreover, since in real life, we know absolutely nothing about the extent to which every doping rider doped, or the extent to which each rider's doping increased his capacity relative to other doping riders, or whether the same profile of talent, top to bottom, was represented in a doped environment as would occur in a clean one, or whether a handful of always-clean riders now look to be better than they had done thanks to everyone else's sliding backward after getting off dope, or whether doping had any effect on the arc of plausible form available to a rider over his or her career, or whether some who stopped did so cold turkey while others gradually titrated themselves down as the detection ceiling lowered over their heads, or to what extent formerly abusing riders have compromised their native abilities to assimilate "clean" training (by disrupting normal endocrine feedback patterns or causing outright thromboembolic and LVH pathologies, etc.) — why would anyone make a confident pronouncement about how what they're seeing at the moment is evidence of some particular effect?

Posts:447

09/17/2013 08:31 AM
L-7 --I lost track of what your point is, but I have to say that last paragraph may be the longest sentence I have ever seen! Well crafted, my friend.

Posts:4499

09/17/2013 12:17 PM
Now wait a second Elle, what you are saying (unless I misread it) seems to be at direct odds with what guys like Fignon (or was it Lemond, or both?) noted about the speed in the peleton towards the end of their career. That sounded very observable to me. And if it's observable it can be quantified.

Posts:48

09/17/2013 05:41 PM
Yes, Orange Crush, that does seem to be the one thing that stands out. Not just Lemond, but others like van Hooydonck, Delion, Art Vierhouten etc. were also astonished by the sudden increase in routine speeds. Maybe this was more about that first shockwave of main-lining addiction, when guys were going from RBC ratios of 41% to the high fifties and even sixties. Bear in mind, however, that between 1990 and the advent of the 1.3.019 control on minimum weight, basic racing bicycles decreased by nearly three kilos, which certainly throws off comparisons at least for climbing, where variables are at least otherwise somewhat understandable. My point, though, is that these things are totally vexing to compare in any dependable scientific sense. If people want to talk about impressions, sensations, and suspicions, that's one thing. VAM, without real on-the-ground measurements and absolute answerability to critical variables, is complete nonsense parading as science. It's nothing but a numerical expression of what we refer to in my trade as "confirmation bias." Stronz, I noted last night in "The Infatuations," the most recent novel by my favorite contemporary writer, Javier Marías, contains a sentence seven pages long. I'm not keeping up!

Posts:4209

09/17/2013 05:45 PM
Bear in mind, however, that between 1990 and the advent of the 1.3.019 control on minimum weight, basic racing bicycles decreased by nearly three kilos Hmmmm.....I don't think so. 6.6 pounds in 8 years? Bikes in 1990 did not weigh 23 lbs. A lot of guys were already on carbon, titanium was common (after being rebadged), etc. Even steel bikes were routinely checking in around 20 lbs or less.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:48

09/17/2013 09:23 PM
Wah! I meant two kilos. Sorry about that. In your pound thingies about 19 down to about 15. But to be honest I can't be sure except about the bikes that I rode. One model at the start of my career was an MBK, also issued to the men's squad of that team, that weighed a hair over 9 kilos. For hilly races, they would get it down a little lower with lighter wheels. (The last race bike I got, twelve years later or something, was an E5 that weighed 7 kilos in a 50cm.) That said, the Grouch's Koga-Miyata, a team bike that he got along with the riders when he was a Tulip DS, really did weigh 10.5 kilos. I don't know the exact year. Granted, those were aimed at bumpy Classics, not mountainous tours.

Dale

Posts:1767

09/17/2013 10:03 PM
Did someone say 1990 TdF bike? Here 'ya go! http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriscallanan/sets/72157623960485181/ http://s1098.photobucket.com/user/lasseaux/media/1990%20Team%20Z%20TVT92%20Greg%20LeMond%20TdF/20130721_190357_zpsc2de63dd.jpg.html http://www.bikecult.com/works/archive/06bicycles/lemondTVT90TdF.html I bet 18 pounds... maybe as low as 17'ish

Posts:48

09/18/2013 03:28 PM
Where's the part that shows the weight? These seem to be photographs of bikes. If we're just back to speculating again, I think I can get up to almost nineteen pounds with just the Time pedals, the Delta brakes, and Record seat pin. And the 32h Sigmas? And the Regal? This gives an idea of how good that guy really was.

jrt1045

Posts:363

09/19/2013 12:01 PM
slippery answers in an "interview" with Daniel Benson. Odd conversation(s). Don't be surprised if no one signs him for 2014 http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/is-chris-horner-a-redacted-name-in-usadas-reasoned-decision

Posts:775

09/19/2013 02:28 PM
I can't decide if it was slippery answers or his dislike of Benson. if he has similar answers with another reporter...

SideBySide

Posts:444

09/19/2013 03:23 PM
If he called me immediately after I got home from winning the Vuelta, and only wanted to talk about doping, I'd be pretty short with him too. You want me to comment on something someone else said, about something that is redacted? Go talk to him about it.

jrt1045

Posts:363

09/19/2013 04:12 PM
last interaction wasn't so bad. http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/exclusive-interview-chris-horner-on-his-career-armstrong-and-pro-cycling is the onus on Horner to develop the belief that he isn't juiced to the gills or is it just the collective problem of fans that have burned too many times to "just trust" him? If the guy wants a job next year you would think he would address something like this head on. Instead we get a page from the back of the Livestrong handbook with a dash of take the money and run The issue will continue to dog him if he continues to treat journalists like this and allow the Radio Shack pr flacks to pile on their wierdness

Posts:151

09/19/2013 04:37 PM
Posted By j t on 09/19/2013 04:12 PM last interaction wasn't so bad. http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/exclusive-interview-chris-horner-on-his-career-armstrong-and-pro-cycling is the onus on Horner to develop the belief that he isn't juiced to the gills or is it just the collective problem of fans that have burned too many times to "just trust" him? If the guy wants a job next year you would think he would address something like this head on. Instead we get a page from the back of the Livestrong handbook with a dash of take the money and run The issue will continue to dog him if he continues to treat journalists like this and allow the Radio Shack pr flacks to pile on their wierdness Cyclingnews has become pretty lame. Seeing them going after Horner like that after the free pass they gave Froome's performance during the tour is pretty funny. Not saying anyone should believe Horner any more than Froome, just noting how obvious the Cyclingnews bias to british cycling has become. I suppose there's always velonews if you want the American bias.....

mahoba

Posts:12

09/19/2013 05:17 PM
I've learned to just wait and hear what Lemond says about the situation.

Posts:317

09/19/2013 06:10 PM
Posted By j t on 09/19/2013 12:01 PM slippery answers in an "interview" with Daniel Benson. Odd conversation(s). Don't be surprised if no one signs him for 2014 http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/is-chris-horner-a-redacted-name-in-usadas-reasoned-decision he just won a grand tour and he doesn't expect to have some skeletons dragged out of the closet? for sure he's rider 15 in levi's deposition. they were on astana together in 08, and levi refers to 'rider 15' telling him he had taken EPO in 05 to recover from an injury before taking stage 6 at the tour de suisse. just so happens chris horner did the same thing. i swear this is why klodi doesn't get results anymore... he wants to quietly finish his career without microphones in his face.

Posts:4499

09/19/2013 06:37 PM
"...and certainly there's a problem with sports and I don't want to say problems with cycling because you turn on television and the news lady has had botox and you wonder if she got the job over a woman with a few wrinkles..."

Posts:4209

09/19/2013 06:47 PM
When getting Botox is declared as being against the rules of being on TV, he'll have a point. Until then.....not so much.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:4499

09/19/2013 07:42 PM
/funny caps was not evident? I don't know what he was getting at most of the interview but that sentence made me chuckle a little.

Posts:775

09/19/2013 10:17 PM
Entheo, did you get: "for sure he's rider 15 in Levi's deposition. They were on Astana together in 08, and Levi refers to 'rider 15' telling him he had taken EPO in 05 to recover from an injury before taking stage 6 at the tour de Suisse. just so happens Chris Horner did the same thing." from the LA Confidential or off of the internet? A lot of people have tossed it around that he is rider 15 but if that is the case, why wouldn't USADA give him the same meaningless punishment that they gave the others? Why would they let him slide? Even if he would have gotten the off season spanking, he would have been fine to race the Vuelta so it doesn't make much difference if he was rider 15. But, if he was rider 15 don't you think that he would be extra careful because he knows they are watching him? If they just missed him in the LA pile, wouldn't they hound him until they got him? I will repeat, I don't know what the guy does, doesn't do or has or hasn't done but the 'rider 15' theory just doesn't add up.

Posts:317

09/20/2013 07:03 AM
jmdirt, it's easy to add up -- here's levi's deposition: http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Leipheimer%2c+Levi%2c+Affidavit.pdf here's horner's timeline: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Horner USADA had bigger fish to fry at the time, and although horner is incriminated for his own usage in levi's deposition horner & armstrong didn't share a team until 2009, which was in essence beyond the timeframe of the investigation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Postal_Service_Pro_Cycling_Team#Team_rosters

Posts:775

09/20/2013 08:39 AM
"In 2008 rider 15 told me that he was using EPO to recover from an injury in 2005 before the TdS" adds up to CH? Levi trained with an international crew so it could have been any one of a number of riders (ie: Rebelin). You added to LL's statement to help your math work out. LL said nothing about a stage win. LA was the big fish, CH was the same size fish as the others who got wrist slaps. If he is rider 15, what does that have to do with the price of tee in China? He doped in 2005. So did 95% of the platoon.

Posts:317

09/20/2013 10:13 AM
two americans who happened to also be friends on the 08 astana team; one of which was injured in early 2005 and went on to ride the TdS. like horner is going to share his drug habits with rebellin, who btw wasn't on the team, or any of the other foreign riders he was likely riding with for the first time. never said LL said anything about the TdS stage win; simply added to the evidence re: EPO fueled comeback. going back to my original reply re: the benson article -- the point is horner better get used to getting asked some tough questions after winning a grand tour at 41 3/4 years of age. as KR would say,

Posts:775

09/20/2013 11:02 AM
Rebelin and LL trained together not CH and Rebelin ("Levi trained with an international crew so it could have been any one of a number of riders (ie: Rebelin)"). Rebelin might have told LL about his dope use. You either didn't comprehend what I typed or you are spinning it. I think that several of the "other" names are foreign riders/trainers/doctors that USADA has no jurisdiction over and/or have cases in their own countries. Nowhere does it say that rider 15 was his friend on the team. You are adding things to make the theory work. Here in-lies a problem: someone is going to read your conclusion that rider 15 was LL's mate on Astana and that becomes fact when in fact, it may not be fact. C'mon Son indeed! You still haven't answered "so what if he is rider 15...what does that have to do with the 2013 Vuelta?" I agree with you that CH better get used to being asked questions when he rides well.

Posts:317

09/20/2013 11:26 AM
Posted By Justin jmdirt on 09/20/2013 11:02 AM You still haven't answered "so what if he is rider 15...what does that have to do with the 2013 Vuelta?" that's exactly what daniel benson is trying to figure out, and horner is being evasive!!

Posts:4209

09/20/2013 12:05 PM
You still haven't answered "so what if he is rider 15...what does that have to do with the 2013 Vuelta?" 1) It indicates past PED use and establishes a pattern of behavior. 2) Combine that with a performance which flies in the face of what we know about human performance (i.e. performance begins to decline as you age), and it raises questions 3) Combine THAT with the fact that he never showed the ability to contest (let alone win) a GT and it raises even more questions.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:775

09/20/2013 12:09 PM
I got ya, you are spinning...and I bit. I'll still try to have a reasonable discussion: Benson is trying to determine if CH is rider 15. Benson didn't get the chance to follow up because CH didn't give him an answer but I doubt that Benson was trying to connect 2005 with 2013. I just can't see USADA not pursuing CH if LL said that "Horner said he used EPO in 2005". If it was a Euro guy USADA can't pursue him, doesn't want to get into an international mess, so they black the name out. I will repeat again though, I am by no means saying that CH never doped.

Posts:775

09/20/2013 12:18 PM
Cosmic, Thank you for an answer. Those are valid discussion points (we discussed them a few days ago;]). IF CH is rider 15 he used EPO to recover from an injury in 2005. CH was injured this year and could have used dope to recover this time too. I'm not sure if two (known) times establishes a pattern but its at least a flag. As we discussed before, I don't completely agree with you on points two and three, but they certainly raise another flag.

jrt1045

Posts:363

09/20/2013 12:22 PM
re: You still haven't answered "so what if he is rider 15...what does that have to do with the 2013 Vuelta?" My boss is passing this way, I can't type now - I don't want to get fired! Gotta go!

Posts:4499

09/20/2013 12:27 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 09/20/2013 12:05 PM You still haven't answered "so what if he is rider 15...what does that have to do with the 2013 Vuelta?" 1) It indicates past PED use and establishes a pattern of behavior. 2) Combine that with a performance which flies in the face of what we know about human performance (i.e. performance begins to decline as you age), and it raises questions 3) Combine THAT with the fact that he never showed the ability to contest (let alone win) a GT and it raises even more questions. So 2013 will be the story of the Chris&Chris 1. Sky hired Leinders; pretty sure they full well knew what he was doing at Rabo. It signals intent. 2. He flies up hills at speeds previously only achieved by guys doped to the gills. 3. Prior to 2011 he never showed any ability to contest GTs. What about that magical 2010-2011 transition going from holding on to motorbikes to winning?

Posts:317

09/20/2013 12:27 PM
one more time: USADA went after US Postal's "systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy"... horner didn't ride for US Postal, nor for Discovery. he was an itty bitty fish orthogonal to the investigation and travis had plenty on his plate taking on armstrong. if horner would have placed in the vuelta where he normally places (or abandons) in GTs then the whole rider 15 thing would be moot anyway. but since he happened to win at age 41, it kinda renewed interest, hence the connection, n'est-ce pas?

Posts:775

09/20/2013 12:51 PM
Entheo, I must admit that I'm disappointed.

Posts:775

09/20/2013 02:48 PM
Cosmic, You might want to also add: 4) why would CH do two Trans Atl flights between the Vuelta and Worlds. as long as we're questioning things.

Posts:4209

09/20/2013 03:34 PM
I dunno if I care much about two trans-Atlantic flights. Certainly not enough to label them "suspicious"....dude just won the 3rd biggest stage race in the world. I canc ertainly understand wanting to go home and see friends / family.

Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!

Posts:775

09/21/2013 09:18 PM
Here's a different perspective: "If Hornydog is clean his Spain win is outfckinstanding especially for an old dude. If he's smokin, thank fckin god for the "fountain of youth". Fuck cycling, I wan't some of that sht to help me get stuff up flights of stairs every day." This is quoted/paraphrased form the cross-town mover who delivered some family antiques today. After he saw my bikes we started chatting. He said he was a BMX pro who also did some crits in the '70s and "kinda follows the big races." He's on to something. I don't want to win races any more, I just want to feel young again. Well, I do like winning still and if I felt younger I would want to win more races so there goes that nasty cycle. But I like his thinking. Do they smoke CERA?!

bobswire

Posts:304

09/24/2013 10:51 AM
Posted By Justin jmdirt on 09/21/2013 09:18 PM Here's a different perspective: "If Hornydog is clean his Spain win is outfckinstanding especially for an old dude. If he's smokin, thank fckin god for the "fountain of youth". Fuck cycling, I wan't some of that sht to help me get stuff up flights of stairs every day." This is quoted/paraphrased form the cross-town mover who delivered some family antiques today. After he saw my bikes we started chatting. He said he was a BMX pro who also did some crits in the '70s and "kinda follows the big races." He's on to something. I don't want to win races any more, I just want to feel young again. Well, I do like winning still and if I felt younger I would want to win more races so there goes that nasty cycle. But I like his thinking. Do they smoke CERA?! I use the saying "you are what you eat" as a metaphor when people ask how I stay in good condition at my age. Actually it's more than that, I work at it diligently. It's a combination of eating, exercise and moderation. I don't lament about what I did in the 70's then use it to demean others because I'm now fat,slow and out of shape like some old "movers" we know. No, I work at it everyday,I don't need any Stinking CERA to get up stairs or climb mountains. I don't understand why you would like the thinking of a guy in my age range (I'm 68) complain about their current condition then demean others who have worked to keep themselves it peak condition.

Posts:317

09/24/2013 12:23 PM
you're looking good there bob! but you need to lose the muscle mass on your arms & upper body if you expect to keep up with quintana, contador & co. on the climbs ;-)

Posts:775

09/24/2013 02:25 PM
"I don't understand why you would like the thinking of a guy in my age range (I'm 68) complain about their current condition then demean others who have worked to keep themselves it peak condition." -Who did I demean? -I have been an athlete my entire life. Its a pretty rare day that I don't ride, run, hike, lift, ski or a combo of those. -The mover was in great shape (56 years old). -Really the two points in my sarcasm: its just cycling, who cares, and we all would like to feel little younger even if we are in better shape than 99% of the population.

bobswire

Posts:304

09/24/2013 02:40 PM
JM I was not talking about you, if anything I respect your lifestyle ,of what I know of it. I was responding to the that movers statement you paraphrased, " Fuck cycling, I wan't some of that sht to help me get stuff up flights of stairs every day." I took that as demeaning Horners accomplishment as though a magic pill got him that win. You know as well as I PEDS will only get you so far, without the work you won't succeed in any athletic endeavor or succeed in a long healthy life for that matter.

thinline

Posts:323

09/24/2013 03:10 PM
Hey, Entheo, Heisenberg, I mean Bob, needs those guns to fight off the bad guys, er uh, good guys, crap I'm confused! And Bob, watch it with the selfies or we'll have to rename you Carlos Danger.