jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 11/11/2013 02:55 PM |
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http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/chris-horner-im-not-rider-15
Several people said that the reason he couldn't win the Vuelta clean was because he had never show three week ability before. Maybe its because he has always been clean and couldn't race for three weeks against top fuel GC guys.
We may never know... |
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Entheo
Posts:317
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| 11/11/2013 03:20 PM |
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by process of elimination i don't know who else fits the criteria of rider 15 other than horner. and his ongoing defense of LA. and alleged statements he's made such as "it ain't cheating if you don't get caught".
i wish i could just willingly suspend disbelief, but i can't. |
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jacques_anquetil
Posts:245
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| 11/11/2013 04:49 PM |
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i want to believe Chris Horner, i really do. he makes a damn good argument.
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ChinookPass
Posts:809
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| 11/11/2013 05:30 PM |
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Maybe there's dudes on Saturn, Mercury, Astana, etc shaking their heads who will tell a different story.
Maybe not.
Horner can tell his "story". It might be true, it might not. As I've always said, we'll see.
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 11/11/2013 11:21 PM |
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I find it amusing that he says that he out his data out there and then questions why journalists haven't done anything with it. Yeah, except for the two that went to anti-doping experts wrasses questions. Funny how he skipped over that....
Let's take an alternate view of his performance outside of the "I was getting better because everyone else stopped doping" theory. An aging rider, in the last year of his contract spends the majority of his season injured. Knowing he has nothing to lose, he gambles everything on a massive win. Said aging rider is also allegedly rider #15 in the USADA Reasoned Decision. Despite his denials, it is pretty hard to overlook the similarities between 15 and Horner's history.
Not to mention he defied almost everything we know about aging and physical performance.
Sorry, ain't buying it. I want to....I really do, but it just doesn't pass the sniff test. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Ibex
Posts:24
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| 11/12/2013 12:31 AM |
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| Hey if Armstrong can come back clean in 2009 and still finish third in the TdF after taking several years off of cycling and riding against a doped field, then I have no trouble believing that Horner could win the vuelta this year clean as well. |
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jrt1045
Posts:363
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| 11/12/2013 09:27 AM |
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desperation and trying to make nice with cycling news so he can get a job next year. Problem is, no one trusts him or believe what he's saying. This coming from his peers and people in the know, that says a lot right there
agree with CK. way too much circumstantial evidence and it doesn't add up right. over the years, there are lots of 3rd/4th hand stories from his Saturn days, Rene Wenzel has quite the reputation. Much less - Saunier Duval, Lotto and Astana. He's certainly not as naive as he plays it out in the interview
Unless he wants to race in parking lots with Microshift parts he might as well hang it up, when it boils down to it I don't think he wants anyone digging too deeply into what will be known as the Asterisk era |
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Entheo
Posts:317
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| 11/12/2013 09:59 AM |
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horner's defense in 2 seconds...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTbgsoHDc24 |
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jrt1045
Posts:363
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| 11/12/2013 10:07 AM |
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good one, Entheo. I was thinking this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ag4nkSh7Q
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 11/12/2013 12:08 PM |
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I won't claim Horner was clean. I have no way of knowing. But, with a body type as extreme as Horner's, just nowhere near as good, I can say that I believe what he did at the Vuelta was possible clean because 1) that course couldn't have been made better for his unique set of abilities and 2) everyone who could challenge him had a hard Tour under his belt already. Horner was fresh. 3) Horner has years of experience and rode very smart, using that experience well.
I think the point to look at isn't that a 41yo won a Tour, it is that the season's schedule and Vuelta course allowed this guy with exactly one trick in his bag who has never shown much of anything else to win one of the big ones. (That said, I like it. It was a victory for us not so fast climbers! I relished races with so much climbing it slowed everyone else down!)
Ben |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 11/12/2013 02:38 PM |
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Cosmic, I know you and I went round-and-round this a while back but:
"Not to mention he defied almost everything we know about aging and physical performance."
The problem is, there isn't enough data on 30-40 year old elite endurance athletes to know very much. Sure we know some generalities about declining endocrine function as we age but those generalities might not apply as well to people who have been active and fit their entire life as they do to people who sit on the chesterfield and get fat for recreation.
I wondered about his comment that no one had analyzed the data. There is also no way that he didn't know about the "programs" on some of his teams (even if he didn't partake). |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 11/12/2013 05:42 PM |
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The only (aerobic) sport that I can think of where physical performance can improve into your late 30's would be long-course triathlon (i.e. Ironman distance races). Many of the recent winners in Kona have been in their late 30's.
This seems to make some sense, since the effort is sub-maxmimal the whole race and it is about endurance. You don't have the anaerobic spikes which would likely cause older athletes issues. However, some of this is also complicated by learning how to race Kona properly...it is a difficult race to properly execute in.
And let's be semi-realistic....he didn't beat the previous record for age by just a little (which, BTW, was set decades ago, he smashed it by over 5 years. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 11/12/2013 05:55 PM |
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CK, I don't think this is a case of Horner improving. I think it is a combination of a tired and a slower, mostly PED free field and Horner being at his best for his age on a course superbly suited for him.
Ben |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 11/12/2013 06:02 PM |
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I dunno Ben.....the guy's entire season was wrecked by injury. I get the "rested" concept, but the idea that he had the mileage in his legs to successfully complete, let alone compete and win a GT seems a bit of a stretch.
If nothing else, the last 20 years have taught us that if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
*sigh* |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 11/12/2013 06:03 PM |
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Chris senior should take a page from Chris junior and know when to be quiet. I don't see any "I never talked to Geert" headlines (hint, hint journos).
But Chris senior painted himself in a corner with salary demands that were not warranted based on a unique result that, however it was achieved, everyone knows will never be repeated. So now he's a little frustrated. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 11/12/2013 06:17 PM |
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I think it is a conspiracy against former Vuelta winners.....
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/15805/Still-no-contract-for-2011-Vuelta-a-Espana-winner-Juanjo-Cobo.aspx |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 11/12/2013 07:51 PM |
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So you are assuming that the guys who win/top 10 at Kona are clean?
What data supports: "...anaerobic spikes which would likely cause older athletes issues."
Wouldn't you expect "he didn't beat the previous record for age by just a little (which, BTW, was set decades ago, he smashed it by over 5 years." since the science of training and nutrition has improved?
I'm not even arguing for CH here, I'm questioning the generalizations based on virtually no data. If you measure two cocks that are 12 and 13 inches long can you assume that all men have cocks about a foot long? I feel sorry for those two dudes with the tiny wieners! 
Maybe Cob and CH can grab some E/E guys and get a conti team rolling. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 11/12/2013 09:52 PM |
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1) the compiled history of athletic performance seems supports the first statement. Athletic performance peaks in the late 20's / early 30's and declines from there. And when you look at how those athletes start to decline, it is often due to their ability to produce anaerobic power. Climbers falter in the mountains, sprinters lose their bursts, etc.
2) no, I would have expected someone in the last 80 years to have scraped by by one or two years, maybe......to your point, nutrition, technology, etc have all improved. And with all the doping prior to now (snark), you'd have thought a 36-37 YO would have pulled it off. But out of nowhere, an almost 42 YO shatters the age record. Hmmmm.....
The data is out there for age related decline in performance.
And I am not assuming that the Top 10 in Kina is clean, but if you look at the guys who are winning in their late 30's, they have the palamares that are consistent with those results. Perfect examples are Chris McCormack and Craig Alexander. Their earlier careers were stock full of high-quality wins. McCormack struggled for years with the heat in Kona and Alexander focused primarily on 70.3 races before making the jump to full IM races.
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 11/12/2013 10:29 PM |
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CK, in 1974 Raymond Poulidor finished 2nd to Eddy Merckx at 38 years old. Had Merckx not been there, you would have had a Tour (not just a Vuelta) winner at 38 years old.
Ben |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 11/13/2013 12:32 AM |
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CK, not to beat this dead horse into dust, but the data isn't there for endurance athletes let alone those at the top. There is a little data from research on Nordic skiers in their 30s but who knows about their 'programs'. There is also some limited tracking done on marathon athletes but their down fall is bone issues from the pounding so the data doesn't go out to 40.
Yes, in the general population endocrine function declines in the 30s but why is that? Is it because of lifestyle/environmental factors? The research isn't there so we can only guess. There is on-going research about how excess body fat can effect endocrine function. There is also data indicating that being sedentary can suppress endocrine functions.
So tell me what is happening at the cellular level that causes a decline in anaerobic power. |
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Yo Mike
Posts:338
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| 11/13/2013 10:02 AM |
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Instead of measuring schlongs, maybe take a look at telomeres instead
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0052769 |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 11/13/2013 11:00 AM |
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I was thinking on my very wet moto ride to work that maybe elite endurance athletes could have a greater decline in endocrine function due to stress/overload (if you toss in 'products' it could really affect things). Again, no data to support that but it would be interesting to see some testing.
The big question is why do I even bother to look at the weather forecast?!
yo Mike, there is some interesting research in that area...thanks for the link. |
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Yo Mike
Posts:338
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| 11/15/2013 01:28 PM |
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Story on main page
/Vuelta a España winner the most tested of all American athletes under USADA system/
Now, where have I heard that before? |
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Keith Richards
Posts:781
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| 11/15/2013 01:33 PM |
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| This isn't HIM saying it this time though. |
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| -----
It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong. |
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bobswire
Posts:304
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| 11/15/2013 02:19 PM |
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Good for USADA releasing this information and Velo Nation printing it, helps level the bad press Horners been receiving from no other proof than speculation. USADA in no ones fool and probably released this figuring Horner's been getting a bad rap. What I don't understand is some of the demeaning threads related to Horner, he's been one of the most humble stand pros these last 15 years that has always worked for the team. We've (as in cycling fans) have become very jaded cynics.
“Cynicism is not wisdom. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but cynicism is a self-imposed blindness. You put the blinders on yourself to protect yourself from a world that you think might hurt you or disappoint you. Be a fool. Believe things will be good. Better to be hurt.” Stephen Colbert |
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jrt1045
Posts:363
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| 11/15/2013 03:15 PM |
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Bob,
CVV, Julich, Michael Barry, Hincapie, -7, DZ, TD, Ryder, Vaughters and many others never tested positive either. The testing does not work, recieving a subpoena does. The cynicism is well earned at this point |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 11/15/2013 04:25 PM |
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The cynicism then should be directed at the anti-doping movement, not the cyclists, precisely because the testing does not work. We are being sold smoke & mirrors, WADA is an organization with a terribly weak mandate and a budget the size of a well earning soccer player. The powers that be will ensure it continues to be that way because the show must go on; they don't actually want to clean up sport.
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 11/15/2013 10:56 PM |
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Well said OC.
So what we get is a sport at war with itself, tearing itself down.
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Entheo
Posts:317
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| 11/17/2013 08:15 AM |
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| for some of us it's skepticism not cynicism -- big difference. |
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Ride On
Posts:537
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| 12/03/2013 01:00 PM |
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| This just in Chris Horner , Velonews man of the year. |
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Yo Mike
Posts:338
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| 12/03/2013 02:20 PM |
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North American Man of the Year.
Miley Cyrus has him beat over at Time Magazine.
Miley Cyrus?!
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SideBySide
Posts:444
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| 12/03/2013 02:21 PM |
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| North American Man of the Year. It is hard to argue against it too much. I like Chris, I am just hesitant to believe. |
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