Mick, lay off the Kobe beef, will 'ya?
Last Post 01/30/2014 09:06 PM by Frederick Jones. 27 Replies.
Author Messages
Dale

Posts:437

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12/18/2013 01:59 PM
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/16024/Tinkoff-Saxo-says-that-Rogers-insists-on-innocence-says-food-likely-source-of-Clenbuterol-positive.aspx Or maybe it was the sushi
bobswire

Posts:290

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12/18/2013 02:27 PM
Dale, I don't eat meat very often,usually during the Holidays or visiting someone having a B-B-Q but if I do have a hamburger I prefer it be Kobe beef. I empathize with Rogers plight of thinking to having to abstain("just in case"). His defense is groundless.
79pmooney

Posts:1012

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12/18/2013 03:17 PM
Is it groundless? We have the occasional positive testing rider arguing for tainted meat and a huge beef industry with deep funds arguing against. On top of that, the evidence apparently was eaten in most of these cases. And we have both an industry and general public that has zero interest in a positive sample ever coming to light.

With the evidence having been "eaten", Rogers' defense is literally groundless. But actual tainted food sidelining a rider? I find that rather easy to believe.

Ben
Cosmic Kid

Posts:979

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12/18/2013 03:22 PM
Prior to this race, he was in racing in China. It is possible that he got meat there that was contaminated with clenbuterol. I know I would never want to get tested following one of my trips there!!

But overll, I'm calling bullschitt....
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
stronz

Posts:295

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12/18/2013 03:28 PM
I wouldnt say his defense is groundless, Bob. There is precedent and the timing is suspicious having been in China the week before. Personally I dont see how any of these guys compete at the level they do on pan e agua, I dont really think it is possible to do so. So I suspect there is plenty of reason to believe any of these positives. Still gotta give him a chance to defend himself. The China defense may be in fact true, but how does one prove it?
79pmooney

Posts:1012

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12/18/2013 03:52 PM
For substances like clenbuterol which can occur in food, I think there should be a threshold. Yes, everyone may well the drug up to the threshold, but if was set correctly so the usual food taint would pass, I am guessing there would be little increase performance so drugging up to that level is net sum very little gain and now an actual bad meal puts you over.

That approach would have preserved the results of a grand tour that no one is arguing was won because of the minute amount of clenbutero that was detected. It would have made racing over the next two years better. And it treats the riders/employees that all benefit from like a valued asset. Allows them to feast at the training table without wondering "what if ...".

Ben
wanker

Posts:19

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12/18/2013 04:13 PM
There is no minimum threshold for clenbuterol, so any detectable amount in the urine will result in a positive test.

Still I find the tainted beef claim rather dubious coming from a former client of Dr. Ferrari.
bobswire

Posts:290

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12/18/2013 04:17 PM
Posted By stronzo nonfumare on 12/18/2013 03:28 PM
I wouldnt say his defense is groundless, Bob. There is precedent and the timing is suspicious having been in China the week before. Personally I dont see how any of these guys compete at the level they do on pan e agua, I dont really think it is possible to do so. So I suspect there is plenty of reason to believe any of these positives. Still gotta give him a chance to defend himself. The China defense may be in fact true, but how does one prove it?

It's groundless in that it has been tested and lost and one should know better than to eat beef (if in fact that was the source),especially one that had rode alongside Berto.Also having been associated with Ferrari does not help.
Orange Crush

Posts:1138

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12/18/2013 04:38 PM
Former T-mob of Ullrich era. Accused of connections with Ferrari. Hmmm. Hmmm.

So let's say he's guilty for a sec. Does that mean he left the straight and narrow upon leaving Sky? Right?

jrt1045

Posts:355

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12/18/2013 04:57 PM
Now you've done it, OC. the Sky card

cue tens of naive English dudes (that live in their mothers basement) taking to the keyboards to defend their heroes and circle the wagons. Cycling News may spontaneously combust
79pmooney

Posts:1012

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12/18/2013 09:17 PM
O.C. and bobs, his history means that he is the one on that team who will be subject to random tests. So again, if the whole team eats tainted meat, it is he that will show positive. (And conveniently for UCI, it looks like they caught another doper and also conveniently, this rider has little credibility.)

I'm not defending him. I just don't like a system that can well punish innocent riders by its inherent design.

Ben
Orange Crush

Posts:1138

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12/18/2013 09:58 PM
I don't like the system either Ben; in fact I am always kicking against system when it seems wrong. Its greatest fault is that no clean rider can point to his/her data and say, looks world, I is clean. By now an argument like that just causes ridicule and laughter, which is a shameful shortcoming of the whole system.

But what does that have to do with playing the Sky card? It's the Joker of Dark Side cards ("we are a team that races and wins clean").
Cosmic Kid

Posts:979

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12/19/2013 12:21 AM
He was tested because he won the Japan Cup, after having been & raced in China previously. So it is feasible that no other Saxo riders were tested, but would hsvr come up hot.

That said, the rumor back in his HTC / Highroad days was that they would not let him race because their internal testing told them he was dirty. Rumor only.....
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Master50

Posts:213

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12/19/2013 10:07 AM
I always have to ask why would he take XXX or YYY? Why would he take this drug at the end of the season? He is plenty lean by then and what other use would Clen have than to lose fat? China is a country with a lot of bad things in their environment including tainted meat. There is no logical reaso to take this drug at the end of the year? Anyone know more about it?
Keith Richards

Posts:694

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12/19/2013 11:04 AM
If Contador went down for it, Rogers should go down for it.

They both used the same rationale. If they dinged Alberto, they have to ding Mick as well
----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.
ChinookPass

Posts:403

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12/19/2013 11:24 AM
Does anyone want my Michael Rogers poster?
ChinookPass

Posts:403

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12/19/2013 11:26 AM
It's this one:
wanker

Posts:19

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12/19/2013 11:32 AM
Clenbuterol is not approved for human use in the US, only in animals. Albuterol is the bronchodilator that is most often prescribed in the US as I believe it has far less side effect than "clen." Clenbuterol is used by dopers to lose weight, increase muscle mass and increase aerobic performance. It is easily detectable in blood tests.
Dale

Posts:437

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12/19/2013 11:44 AM

There is no threshold for Clenbuterol use-- any detectible amount and the test is positive. That was one of the big deals about Alberto, the lab that tested him was able to push the detectible level down to a new low. Any other lab and he would have skated.

As a side note, one does not need a TUE to use it Albuterol.
79pmooney

Posts:1012

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12/20/2013 12:59 PM
Guys, another case:

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/16038/Report-Depressed-at-Clenbuterol-positive-Breyne-recovering-after-taking-overdose-of-tablets

I googled this rider. Wikipedia comes up in French, but he seems like the usual good, aspiring under 23 rider, a few wins in juniors and espoirs. At a November Chinese Tour de what?? he placed 8th, winning one stage. Certainly doesn't raise big red flags in my book. But it got him tested.

I saw a headline that WADA is/should be telling governments to ensure that the food supplies are safe. WADA telling China what to do? Do I hear laughter?

So a responsible rider who includes meat in his diet needs to stand up to his team and say "I won't go to xxxx because you cannot ensure that the food I need to perform won't be tainted. This is my career at stake." BS! UCI should either back of its "globalization" or put thresholds in place. As was pointed out above, that is WADA's issue. But as was also pointed out above, WADA needs high profile cycling to exist. So UCI wags WADA's tail. Sounds to me just like UCI in days past trying to tell the Tour de France how to operate its ship. The Tour just said "F you" and continued to do its thing, knowing UCI needed the Tours but the Tours didn't need UCI. Same here. A UCI with guts would stand up for its riders and say that thresholds for potential (and in places common) food contaminants must be in place; that what is happening now is completely unacceptable.

For the riders, this isn't a game. It's their life. Some of the best riders are very high strung people. That gives them the drive to do what we love to watch. But it also means that if we treat them badly, we may see ugly behavior from them, like suicide. I want to see the sport I love treat them like a valued asset. Yes, I want to see clean racers, but I also want to see them treated as valued employees. I think doing both is possible.

This kid could be another Marco Pantani. I will never defend Pantani's drug use. But, and this is a big "but", he was a huge asset to the racing scene, one that many people paid good money to see, to emulate, etc. and that many made big money from. He was the high strung athlete that came to mind immediately when I saw this story. Now, I hope this Jonathan Breyne has been on a clean path to this day. This suicide attempt sounds to me like he has that passion that we love to see. Let's not make him stew on the back burner for 2 years, maybe relegating him to a factory job and hard drinking to forget where he should be.

Ben
Dale

Posts:437

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12/20/2013 02:20 PM
Posted By 79 pmooney on 12/20/2013 12:59 PM


I saw a headline that WADA is/should be telling governments to ensure that the food supplies are safe. WADA telling China what to do? Do I hear laughter?

Ben


I saw that… made me a bit ill to my stomach.
Seriously, this is messed up
longslowdistance

Posts:580

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12/21/2013 10:01 AM
Agree. Seems foolish to race in China.
79pmooney

Posts:1012

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12/21/2013 07:22 PM
I can see why UCI is so interested in racing there. Potential for the world's biggest audience, by far. Well worth the effort if it takes 10 years. BUT you have to deal with reality when it stares you in the face.

I saw this over on Velonews: "All samples are analyzed for clenbuterol, in any WADA lab. It’s a routine analysis,” a UCI official said via email. “That means all samples from the Tour of Beijing were analyzed for clenbuterol. Same for Japan.”

So they mean to tell me that every animal eaten over a week by 200 riders was tested? Including street market delights and restaurant meals? At the airport? Or they are saying every sample submitted tested clean; that there may well be others they do not know about. Very, very different. And a two year suspension is a fair penalty for anyone guilty of eating un-sampled meat?

Cycling needs a good, strong union. That is BS, unless they really did get every animal.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:1012

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12/24/2013 01:31 AM
Yeah, this is what I 'm talking about:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/white-uci-must-guarantee-meat-is-clenbuterol-free-in-beijing

Ben

Edit:  If it is true that the riders all ate the same, UCI provided, food and if the riders ate contaminated meat there, then, UCI is saying, in effect "The penalty for eating the contaminated food we served you under duress (remember the teams are required to ride the Tour of Beijing; they cannot opt out) is two years." 

Sounds to me like the riders might have legal redress.

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:1012

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01/30/2014 01:08 PM
So now UCI is saying riders should abstain from meat while competing in China and Mexico. Time for the union to step in. The boss is telling employees they cannot eat meat for a duration the employer specifies; that the penalty for eating that meat may well be a two year suspension without pay?

Yet these employees are engaged on a job with huge physical demands where diet is critical. The employers' own physicians will be telling those employees not to make big changes in diet while traveling to foreign countries for the next "job". But going from a lifetime of eating meat to none? Big change!

Riders union, put on your pants and step up!

Ben
stronz

Posts:295

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01/30/2014 03:27 PM
I hear ya Ben -- but its not really an employer/employee relationship is it? Its more of a police - citizen relationship. (or slave-owner/slave relationship?) I will agree with you that the cyclists need to step up and get strong representation -- to get the other players in the strange partnerships that constitute pro cycling to recognize that the people who ultimately pay for everything do so to see the riders. Without the riders there is no sport. The riders need to benefit from a profit sharing system and to establish a much stronger union that simply would not allow idiotic conditions (such as holding races in places where the food supply is tainted) to persist.
79pmooney

Posts:1012

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01/30/2014 03:47 PM
It's not a simple relationship, no. Those making the rules aren't "employers". But, the riders hold all the cards in their hands. If they do not ride, no one makes money. Really simple. Like I say, the union has to put its pants on.

Suppose no riders were willing to go to Beijing. All were willing to take paycuts or penalties. UCI can hardly apply penalties to 200 riders for refusing to work under unfair conditions. (I suspect other non-cycling unions, esp in countries like Italy, would voice support.)

The rider's union making this simple statement would, I'll bet, could be the start of some big changes. They would see that if they step up, things will happen. (I can see UCI going to WADA and telling them they have to change the wording on the rules on banned food additives, that it is putting the UCI expansion into the 3rd world at stake. Things would change and I bet, pretty fast. The union makes its statement in June and I bet by September, trace amounts of Clemburteral would be legal. Way too much for UCI to lose.

I don't believe for a second this will happen. If this were football or baseball, it would. (Can you imagine telling the players that they couldn't eat meat for 10 days? Yeah, right!)

Ben
longslowdistance

Posts:580

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01/30/2014 09:06 PM
Bobs, that's an interesting vision of a different world with a strong riders' union.
A pertinent comparison as you point out is the major American sports, which have strong players' unions. There is some drug testing but it's weak and doping is rampant. But the product is good and the fans and sponsors come in droves. Everyone makes money - the American Way!
Cycling tests like mad and crucifies those caught. Doping is may be prevalent but in low doses for the most part to keep from getting caught.
The Spanish squashed inquiry into Operation Puerto. Why? Perhaps because it might catch some soccer players. Can't have that.
Who's making the most money? Who has the happiest fans and sponsors? It's entertainment. Let the gladiators play!


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