World Cup. Who ya got? - VeloNation - Cycling Forums, Bicycle Forums, Community Forums

Posts:2881

06/09/2014 09:35 PM
Spain or Brazil? Depends on Neymar. Asa ' merican I've been fearing the worst for the team, but they just beat Nigeria. Who knows? If only we had 4 decent defenders to fit Klinsman's 4-4-2.

Posts:4499

06/09/2014 10:23 PM
R U kidding me, is this even a question

jmdirt

Posts:775

06/09/2014 10:26 PM
Home country.

jookey

Posts:197

06/10/2014 06:05 AM
Logic says Brazil. So I'll go Germany. Where did I put my vuvuzela?

Posts:2881

06/10/2014 08:10 AM
In the trash, I hope.

Yo Mike

Posts:338

06/10/2014 09:16 AM
Who will win? The Financiers, without question. Sorry to rain on the parade, but WC seems like a scam, much like the olympics. The money could be better spent. Having it in Quatar in 4 years? Laughable, but money talks.

Posts:781

06/10/2014 10:32 AM
I am going to say Brazil, with Germany my second choice. The Dutch....when crunch time comes around, I just don't think the team will work together well enough.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

Posts:4499

06/10/2014 02:57 PM
Keith you've got it wrong on the Orange; while that was case at Euro Cup 2yrs ago that is not typically their problem and won't be problem this time around. Their problem is that they don't need to win. As long as we're better than the Germans we've done good. And now our friends to south too of course, the Red Devils. The other problem is that our players are so good, they get overused during season and are injured. RvP, Robben and Sneijder are already limping and it is only practice time. Strootman, well he's not even there, out for another half year.

OlmoRider

Posts:5

06/10/2014 02:57 PM
Germans are like the Dutch in the 70s, their play is not boring anymore. I hope they will brake the spell and finally win outside Europe.

Posts:781

06/10/2014 03:09 PM
OC, we shall see, right? Hey, I am a fan of the Dutch squad. But I am curious to see if they can do what they are capable of.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

OlmoRider

Posts:5

06/10/2014 03:36 PM
You Mike, I hear you but what sports would not be affected by corruption? Badminton, orienteering? I happen to be a fan of both but it seems to me that wide popularity and big money unavoidably lead to unhealthy behavior.

Yo Mike

Posts:338

06/13/2014 10:59 AM
@ Olmo My position is pretty close to Slate's. Corruption is an understatement. But I was wrong about Qatar; it is Russia that will host the WC in 2018. In Crimea, perhaps? http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/06/brazil_s_world_cup_will_this_be_the_last_world_cup_hosted_by_a_democracy.html

Posts:4499

06/13/2014 05:00 PM
Posted By Orange Crush on 06/09/2014 10:23 PM R U kidding me, is this even a question Like I said. Convincing enough for you Keith?

smokey52

Posts:493

06/13/2014 05:19 PM
OC- 5-1. not too shabby.

Posts:2881

06/13/2014 05:33 PM
Yo Mike, that's brilliant! Who better to say "in your face!" than Putin?

Posts:2881

06/14/2014 07:10 AM
Just watched the Holland-Spain game on DVR. Wow, an historic win for Holland. First 40 minutes was Spain on cruise control, and for the remainder Spain looked old and their goalie was awful. But remember that the eventual WC winner usually does not breeze through the group stage.

Posts:4499

06/14/2014 01:15 PM
LSD - winning is overrated; its about showing the world how the beautiful game is played. Besides, we already won a world cup today, in another beautiful game.

Posts:2881

06/28/2014 08:10 AM
OK soccer fans, reset: Who ya got? Holland vs. Brazil final. 1950 all over again (Brazil loses the final at home)? I don't think so! OC: an article for you about field hockey teaching soccer coaches in Holland: http://online.wsj.com/articles/the-dutch-secret-to-soccer-success-field-hockey-1403045877

Posts:4499

06/28/2014 03:35 PM
Interesting LSD, but Total Soccer's roots are older than our quest in field hockey, goes back to 1920s although it really grew in the Cruijff years. The article also fails to mention is that the current team plays the anti-thesis of Total Soccer, heck we're playing like Greece; the Belgians are heckling us for this. Aside from one of the worlds best forwards and winger, both of which happen to be on hot form and keen to revenge 2010, this is a decidedly average team with some key guys missing (injured). But van Gaal knows how to get the most our of any team; that coaching talent is really what sets the Orange apart and can be traced to a small building in Zeist where many of the worlds best have been educated. We'll see where it ends with this team, could be tomorrow or in final. That women's hockey team though is the best looking and most lethal team in the world; they will win many more.

Posts:2881

06/29/2014 02:38 PM
Nice dive.

Posts:4499

06/29/2014 03:45 PM
Robben knew the ref needed a liitle convincing, especially after he denied him a clear penalty on first occasion (the Moreno tackle and injury). Its the psychology of the game. Good fight by the Mexicans and they've got an awesome goalie but they lack a clean finisher up front. It was so bloody hot in that stadium the public sitting on sunny side couldn't bear it and emtied out.

Posts:2881

06/29/2014 05:09 PM
This is one of the areas where soccer as played has trouble gaining traction in the US. We have a well developed sense of fair play. Klinsmann has publicly chided his players for playing too nice, not using every weapon available. What's called "Clever Ball" (fooling the ref) in Europe looks a bit too much like cheating here. Another issue for us 'mericans is the poor refereeing in soccer that's accepted by Euros with a shrug as part of the game. How can one guy with two linesmen cover a field that big? Mexico got screwed out of two goals in the first round by incorrect offsides calls, and were hurt in the first half of today's game.

Posts:4499

06/29/2014 05:22 PM
Look the Mexican D played Robben's foot, not the ball. Clear foull, clear penalty. But sometimes the ref needs a little nudge to see it. There are no lengthy replays and stoppages to allow the ref to reassess the situation based on taped images. That's the beauty of the game, continuous play, not endless interruptions, and that is why its popolar worldwide. And this is where a bit of acting to convince the ref in that split second comes in. Where's fair play in say hockey? Its a "sport" where any creativity is stamped out by brute force.

Posts:2881

06/29/2014 05:42 PM
Fair enough. Good analogy with ice hockey - the North American professional version is more about banging bodies and I do prefer college and Olympic hockey more - a more beautiful game. Back to my rant, every time Robben tripped over his own feet in the second half he was working the ref. Smart? Absolutely. Just rubs me the wrong way.

Posts:4499

06/29/2014 06:04 PM
You might understand it more if you realize the cumulative amount of injury time guys like Robben have suffered over their careers from attacks on ankles, knees. Its been many years since he's played painfree. Like it or not this is the way for them to level the playing field agaist defenders stepping out of bounds. Its how the game is played and you guys better get with the program. But the bigger problem with US (and Canuck) soccer is you play it hockey style with long ball forward, hope it sticks, there are big problems with aggression in junior hockey BTW, at least here north of 49th.

Posts:781

06/29/2014 08:09 PM
OC you can say whatever you want about us not understanding the game. These are grown assed men playing ball. Grown assed men don't exaggerate contact to draw a foul. It's weak.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

Ride On

Posts:537

06/29/2014 08:21 PM
If you haven't seen this one you need to. Right in our wheel house https://www.facebook.com/livetocycle/photos/a.662808067070151.1073741828.662802347070723/815409678476655/?type=1

Posts:4499

06/29/2014 08:52 PM
Keith - you clearly don't understand the balance between defenders stepping out of bounds to put fear in forwards and forwards doing their part to protect themselves. Its up to the ref to see through this and correct as needed. Its beautiful when done right and annoying when done poorly. Reffing a soccer game properly is as tough as it gets. Grown men shouldn't need a ton of padding and a helmet to play a ballgame either. And interruping a game for a timeout, come on that's just low.

79pmooney

Posts:3180

06/29/2014 09:03 PM
OC, hockey? Grown men shouldn't need a ton of padding and a helmet to play a ballgame either. And interrupting a game for a timeout, come on that's just low. Oh, the puck is a disk, not a ball. Ben PS Weird glitch. I copies and pasted OC's quote. "interrupting" was highlighted as misspelled in my paste. The "t" was missing. Looked at OC's original. The "t" was there. Huh?

Posts:4499

06/29/2014 09:09 PM
Nope Ben, football, it might not be considered a ball either cause clearly its an egg :-)

Posts:781

06/30/2014 12:20 PM
I am a certified line judge OC. At the youth level, I would call that foul. Any touching like that in the box and I am pointing to the penalty kick spot. At the World Cup, in the round of 16...I will let the players decide the game and swallow my whistle on that call.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

Posts:4499

06/30/2014 12:44 PM
These are certified world cup judges Keith, big difference with reffing a kid's game (which can be challenging enough as it is with parents on sideline; I know this because I am on executive of our soccer club and get to deal with these situations all the time). Robben put the Mexican defense to shame; played the ball and was about to go after it. Marquez made the stupid mistake of sticking his foot out in his own 16 without any attempt to play the ball. Obstruction, tripping, whatever you want to call it, that's a penalty. The ref made the call and that's the end of story. This was the second stupid mistake Marquez made, his first came in first half, the double assault by him and Moreno on Robben inside the Mexican 16. Marquez even admits that moment in the first half should have been a penalty. Not only that, the stupid Moreno assault which saw him break his own leg should have been a red. What happened in the second half was a logical consequence of the ref not making the right call in the first half. Crap like that needs to be weeded out, starting at the youth level. The way I see it the Orange were denied a penalty, not gifted one. Game should have been over right there. http://metro.co.uk/2014/06/29/netherlands-denied-a-penalty-for-double-foul-on-winger-arjen-robben-in-the-area-in-world-cup-match-against-mexico-4780675/ 2nd half; Marquez, no attempt to play the ball, attempt to foul opponent, the rules are clear, you should know this. You shallow your call, guys like Robben, Messi etc will be kicked out of existence by guys like Moreno.

Posts:2881

06/30/2014 01:19 PM
Note to World Cup refs: Try to be more consistent and suck less. Also call the first half penalty against Robbin you missed, give van Persie a yellow for his ridiculous jersey grab, and give Robben a yellow for each flop.

Posts:1767

06/30/2014 01:22 PM
So why don't they have more officials on the field where acting doesn't need to come into play to equalize a missed call earlier in the match?

Posts:781

06/30/2014 01:52 PM
Posted By Orange Crush on 06/30/2014 12:44 PM These are certified world cup judges Keith, big difference with reffing a kid's game That was my point. I would call any contact in a kids game in the box in that situation. At the level this game was at, unless it was denying a scoring chance or the contact was such that an injury could have occurred or the player was ACTUALLY brought to ground as opposed to falling after a trip that any elite athlete could run though, I am not making the call. You have to be consistent at the World Cup level in my opinion OC. If you are not going to call the first one, don't blow a "make up call" that late in the second half. And RvP is very quietly one of the dirtiest players in int'l soccer. He gets away with it because he is pretty.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

Posts:4499

06/30/2014 02:06 PM
It's not a makeup call Keith and this is why you are not reffing at World Cup level. Obstruction in box equals penalty, scoring chance or not. You should know this. You are making lame excuses for poor decision on Marquez end. Robben sold it well, sure, but the foul was made. Doesn't matter if Robben was going to score or not. Heck, my first reaction was "is this a penalty?"; then I watched the replay couple times, ref made the right call. The stuff RvP does, look these are game at edge of a knife, its no place for the meek. If you are going to call that you might as well send both teams off. The ref overall did a pretty good job of guiding that game. By comparison, the Greece - Costa Rica game was an out of control rain of fouls and cards. Unwatchable.

Posts:4499

06/30/2014 02:12 PM
Posted By Dale Dale on 06/30/2014 01:22 PM So why don't they have more officials on the field where acting doesn't need to come into play to equalize a missed call earlier in the match? Dale - simple answer, it sells. Look at all the headlines today. Why do you think half the planet is tuning in? This controversial stuff between countries is what keeps soccer as the greatest game on earth alive. Why doesn't hockey combat needless violence in the ring? It sells. Why doesn't cycling do a better job of weeding out doping? Spectacular mountain stages sell. Why doesn't football do a better job of weeding out concussions? Spectacular impact play sells. Why does baseball not weed out steroid use? Homers sell. Every sport has its own daemons.

Posts:1767

06/30/2014 02:49 PM
The horrible substitute refs in the NFL a few years ago garnered a lot of headlines but it sure wasn't good for the game. I'll give you that the officiating created a lot of headlines but I'd rather the news be about great playing, not piss poor acting necessitated by a lack of officials.

Posts:4499

06/30/2014 03:11 PM
Its a minor storm in the glass of water that is social media Dale. If you read some of the neutral and more informed media, you'll realize the Mexican coach sealed their fate midway through 2nd half, taking out their one true forward that could have kept the Dutch defense honest and opening the way for the Dutch to play full on offense, leading to 10 corners in the span of 15 (?) minutes. The spectucular Mexican goalie is the only thing that kept them alive and for a while it looked like he was unbeatable. That's what the game was about, poor versus kickass substitutions turned things around. The rest is just a bunch of whining.

Posts:1767

06/30/2014 04:20 PM
So you're saying this is the futbol version of a John McEnroe episode? That helps me have a better understanding.

Posts:4499

06/30/2014 05:47 PM
Posted By Dale Dale on 06/30/2014 04:20 PM So you're saying this is the futbol version of a John McEnroe episode? That helps me have a better understanding. Tennis could use a bit more McEnroe and a lot less Nadal

Posts:4499

06/30/2014 11:52 PM
Posted By Keith Jackson on 06/30/2014 12:20 PM I am a certified line judge OC. At the youth level, I would call that foul. Any touching like that in the box and I am pointing to the penalty kick spot. At the World Cup, in the round of 16...I will let the players decide the game and swallow my whistle on that call. Well here's the Word Keith, two op-ed pieces that cut through the crap of social media and call a foul a foul, as well as dismissing the myth of embellishing. Pretty much as I've said all along. http://www.tsn.ca/soccer/story/?id=456022 http://www.sportingnews.com/soccer/story/2014-06-30/world-cup-2014-blame-mexicos-marquez-for-tripping-not-robben-for-falling-netherlands-knockout-fifa-soccer The World Cup can be glorious for many reasons. On Sunday it stepped up to educate viewers. Arjen Robben was fouled in the box deep into added time in the match against Mexico. The key word in that sentence is 'fouled.' Defender Rafa Marquez stepped in and stood on the foot of Robben in the penalty area. At no level of this sport, from youth football to the World Cup, is a defender allowed to step on an opponent's foot. None. It was a clear penalty. 100 times out of 100 a referee should give it. Terrible. How could Rafael Marquez have been so reckless? He is 35 years old. He has been playing for the Mexico national team since 1997. He has 124 caps, has captained the team in four World Cups. He started in central defense and won the UEFA Champions League with FC Barcelona. He should know how to play the game by now. So why would he stick out his leg on an obviously belated challenge when Netherlands star Arjen Robben was about to lose control of the ball? Robben made the smart play as Marquez made the wrong one.Marquez knew what the repercussions might be when he stuck out his leg. If he did not get the ball, he might get Robben. He wasn’t even close to the ball. So what was he doing? He was bringing a terrible end to a magnificent World Cup game, and probably to his own great World Cup career. That’s a shame, but it’s on him.

Posts:2881

07/01/2014 08:38 AM
We get it, it was the proper call. It's the context that riles. Some many other much worse fouls not called, i.e., the laws of soccer are situational. Embellishments, jersey grabbing, cheap shots when the ref's head is turned are part of the game but do not endear soccer to Americans.

Posts:4499

07/01/2014 09:17 AM
Read the second article again LSD; its only in your minds that soccer is somehow different. There are other reasons why the game doesn't make it past the youth level. Don't make excuses. Come on, how much dirty play doesn't get called in hockey, why are there so many concussions in football. A little bit of a reality check please.

Ride On

Posts:537

07/05/2014 06:18 PM
OC , how much does every World Cup game add to your age ?

Posts:4499

07/05/2014 06:50 PM
Let's just say its good that I manage to rejuventate myself cycling. Another winning substitution by v Gaal. He's an absolutely brilliant coach. Now I am perfect in the WC poule at work and on track to win some good beer moneys.

Posts:2881

07/05/2014 08:19 PM
Wow, great show! Also admiring the Brilliant NL substitution putting in Shaquille O'Neal sized goalie for the shootout. Hats off to plucky Costa Rica for hanging with the best. Better game than the Columbia Brazil hackathon. Almost every team in this steamy hot World Cup that has played 120 minutes has played poorly in their next game and lost. Big test for Holland coming up.

Posts:4499

07/06/2014 11:59 AM
Fortunately stats are just that LSD. The previous 9 penalty shootouts in WC setting had all gone to team starting the shootout. And the Orange had never won one in a WC setting; penalty shootouts had been a history of fail. Big test for both teams. Argentina didn't really impress against the Belgians. While it was a rough game, Brasil impressed me most in Quaterfinals and I think they are now the hot favorite. But all bets are pretty much off at this stage.

Posts:2881

07/06/2014 09:17 PM
OC, Good points all. FWIW, the 120 minute game = flat next time out does make sense since it's so hot and humid and recovery time is limited. IMO, you are generous to the host team. Without Neymar (see my rants above about crappy officiating and your observations on the prevalence of the dark arts of hacking in pro soccer), and Silva (although his suspension might be revoked for som many reasons) can they rise to the occasion? It would be epic.

Posts:4499

07/08/2014 12:20 PM
The 120 minute rule is fine but if you took note; they were still playing soccer at 117 mins; not dropping like flies with cramp as in other games. This is a very fit team. We'll have 200 million brasilians cheerings us on, that's for sure. Cause the worst thing that could happen for the host country is for those "arrogant" Argentineans to take the cup. Kinda like the NL-GER rivalry. Ultimately this will come down to who has the better day and greater will power, Messi or Robben. Consider this though, since 1998, all WC finals both Adidas and Nike have had representation. Which means either an all Euro final or an all South American final. That's not my prediction for WC poule.

Posts:2881

07/08/2014 04:42 PM
Writing this before halftime of the Brazil debacle. Remember Brazil played 120 minutes last game. Holy Crap, I rest my case. OC, hope you're right about Dutch fitness. It will be tested tomorrow.

Posts:4499

07/08/2014 04:53 PM
I don't know what happened there but I doubt the 120 minute causal effect. More likely a team completely crumbling under pressure of the expectations of a nation. More reminiscent of the Spain debacle, and they were supposed to be fresh as daisies :-) Already dubbed as the most bizarre 6 minutes of a WC ever.

Posts:2881

07/08/2014 07:34 PM
Almost no effort to defend. Against Germans! Ugly. The physical and mental fatigue didn't account for the utter mental letdown, but will you agree that it may have contributed significantly?

Posts:4499

07/08/2014 09:06 PM
This was a loss of such epic proportions, fatigue doesn't come close to explaining it. I think you put your finger on it better in an earlier post, Brasil was loose sand, held together by Neymar in front and Silva in back. Without those two, it turned into loose sand. Its somewhere between that and having to make good on the $3B Brasil pumped into this event. A win would have made everyone forget about it; now the country is in a deep mental hole.

Posts:1767

07/08/2014 10:00 PM
Can anyone give me the German-Brasil World Cup score? All I could see was a blowout baseball game score of 7-1 …wow…. just, wow.

jmdirt

Posts:775

07/09/2014 01:08 AM
I agree with Dale...wow! I am worried for the Brasil as a country now. The have nots might have forgiven the gross use of money to buy the WC if they won the title, but now, the riots will be ugly! Hopefully no one gets killed!

jookey

Posts:197

07/09/2014 10:39 PM
Sorry OC...

Posts:4499

07/09/2014 11:10 PM
Ah well, you win one (Boom), you lose one. We'll call it even for the day. Too much TV though; time to refocus on my own biking and get this summer going.

SideBySide

Posts:444

07/10/2014 02:59 PM
Having the Tour and the WC at the same time is entirely too much TV. Condolences OC.

jmdirt

Posts:775

07/13/2014 06:03 PM
Mike is correct, the big winners are the money people and the big losers are the people. With that said I'll take Germany for Cup (time stamp

Posts:2881

07/13/2014 11:26 PM
Well Germany probably spent the most money preparing their team, so . . . At the tournament's conclusion, outstanding individual performances are recognized- best goalie, best offensive field player. They should add a "best flopper" award. It should look exactly like the motion picture Oscar for outstanding acting. The competition would be intense, as there are so many deserving candidates. I have a Brazilian houseguest now, who is just plain miserable. This is a deep psychic wound for Brazil. They take the sport so seriously, it's hard for me to understand as an American. I suspect that for most American fans, even most hard core fans, pro sports are mainly a show, an excuse for a picnic. Game over, give it day, we move on.

Posts:4499

07/13/2014 11:51 PM
Well at least Argentina did not win; that would have made the Brazilian wound that much more unbearable. The fact that world cup sits so deep in the psyche of a nation is what makes soccer like no other sport. Hell, the Netherlands have still not fully come to terms with the losses of 1974 and 1978. 2010 was rectified relatively quickly. The tournament ended on a good note but too bad the dagger in Brazilian's hearts had to be twisted one more time.

Posts:2881

07/13/2014 11:58 PM
OC, Does the 3rd place satisfy?

Posts:4499

07/14/2014 12:45 AM
Yes, they came in as outsiders ranked 15, left rank 3 despite a cobbled together midfield and a green back line. This was a better performance than 2010 where we had a must-win team. The one guy whose feelings will be raw is Robben. In 2010 he was denied in regular time by the toe of Cassilas and you could tell how he was set on revenge by how he grabbed every game by the scruff of the neck. He played a heck of a lot better than Messi, whose performance in semis and final was pretty pale..

Posts:2881

07/14/2014 08:51 AM
Roben was a force, no doubt. Interesting take on Messi in particular and tikka takka soccer played by little fast guys in general: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/11/enjoy-argentina-s-lionel-messi-while-you-can.html

Posts:781

07/14/2014 02:31 PM
I have always said that Messi would not do nearly as well in a league with size. It is why I always preferred Ronaldo to him these past few years. Christiano can do his thing on any team. Messi, I remain unconvinced.

----- It is his word versus ours. We like our word. We like where we stand and we like our credibility."--Lance Armstrong.

Posts:4499

07/14/2014 03:24 PM
That daily beast article is pretty poor, it tries to make links that do not exist. There is no link between the individual artistry of Messi and the genius that was Barca and Spain, both of which were based on the collective strenght and superior position play, as is the German win this tournament. Barca's hey days were under Rijkaard and Guardiola, both of which are Johan Cruyff protegees who introduced the Dutch style of pressing soccer to the club. It was that superior position play that made the difference and the abandonment of that play under current management is what set in the downward slide for Barca. There's nothing Messi alone can do about this. Hence his frustrating season this year. Incidently, v Gaal and now Guardiola brought that same pressing style of play to Bayern and as main supplier of national team, that has led to the success Germany saw this year. Meanwhile watch Barca run further downhill with the Suarez transfer. Another individualist that will not make them go any better as a team. Cruyff has heavily criticized the move and the guy has amazing predictive capabilities when it comes to the game of soccer.