jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 09/11/2014 02:56 PM |
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I know it will cost too much for my income, but I would love to drive it!
http://www.cnet.com/xcar/ |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 09/12/2014 07:14 AM |
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I'm waiting for the model X - will be easier to fit a bike inside.
And buying lottery tickets so I could actually buy one :-) |
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Inferno7
Posts:344
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| 09/12/2014 08:47 AM |
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| 30-40k for their reg sedan oncee the NV battery factory gets cranked up. I'm proud of Tesla, and glad they are making cars. |
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Ride On
Posts:537
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| 09/12/2014 05:45 PM |
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Why do people think new electric cars are better for the environment in some way ?
First drive the old gas guzzling car you have now for 25 years. The amount of energy needed to produce a new car is huge. It will way exceed any savings in energy gained by having an electric over gas car.
Second the battery technologies they are using today are hazardous, is putting it mildly. Lead is bad but this stuff is really bad. Also the batteries won't last 20 years and no one is going to put a new battery in a 10 yr old car so the life of the car is cut in half. See point one. New cars are bad for the environment.
Sorry this is just one of my hot buttons. New electric cars are not a good way to be kind to Mother Earth. Ride your bike, move closer to work, ride the train, don't buy a new car. |
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THE SKINNY
Posts:506
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| 09/12/2014 06:32 PM |
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| as much as i like tesla and the whole electric car concept, i agree they aren't a solution for transit. batteries are nasty. it's really hard to beat a bicycle for moving around town if your town is bikeable. i rode downtown yesterday evening to hear a lecture (on sitting and posture) at our fancy brainy nerdy institute and there was a tesla model s in the parking lot (along with a lot of other high dollar cars). there was also some sort of concert going on at the large unsightly arena, country music i'm guessing due to the amount of cowboy boots i saw. it was so pleasant to zip through traffic on a bike enjoying the sights. |
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| How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 09/12/2014 07:17 PM |
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I agree that human power is the way to go BUT you aren't going to get most of America to agree on that.
We put a new bat in our 12 year old Insight and we will have it at least eight more years.
If you are on hydro for electric, over 10 years an electric car IS cleaner than a gas one. Yes keeping the old car is cleaner but you set up a grapes to watermelon comparison to make you point. |
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ChinookPass
Posts:809
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| 09/12/2014 07:42 PM |
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People don't want to bike as indicated in this graph based on a survey at Portland State University.
When asked what would get you to bike to college (located reasonably close to downtown): answer: nothing.
Couldn't convince my wife to bike 3 miles to the local HS for a meeting last evening on a gorgeous fall evening.
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Ride On
Posts:537
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| 09/12/2014 07:46 PM |
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Just curious what did the new battery run you ?
And good for you most people won't do that. Certainly not Tesla owners who want new again every few years and the second hand market for used electric cars is terrible. |
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Inferno7
Posts:344
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| 09/12/2014 08:14 PM |
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| I get ya Ride On, to be honest I just think they are cool. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 09/12/2014 11:44 PM |
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Even though we were 20 months past the battery warranty, Honda USA paid for it.
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Master50
Posts:340
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| 09/13/2014 09:03 PM |
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Posted By Justin jmdirt on 09/12/2014 07:17 PM
I agree that human power is the way to go BUT you aren't going to get most of America to agree on that.
We put a new bat in our 12 year old Insight and we will have it at least eight more years.
If you are on hydro for electric, over 10 years an electric car IS cleaner than a gas one. Yes keeping the old car is cleaner but you set up a grapes to watermelon comparison to make you point.
Do they factor how the electrify is produced? Coal fired 40 year old plant or Hydroelectric? I would guess the tastes balance toward a truly green car is how the energy was created too. Are the energy densities of gasoline being matched by batteries? I don't think so. There is a huge inefficiency each time we change energy systems. Burn coal to generate electricity at X efficiency, loose some more turning it into chemical energy and more turning it back into electricity. At some point electric cars will also reach some critical mass where we start to overload the current capacity to produce the electrical energy we need and then what do we do? burn even more coal? restart older coal fired generating stations? In a utopian world we recharge our batteries in the sun but that is not how we function. I am not really sure the green thinkers spend much time verifying they are advocating better technologies? Hoping for a technological leap forward to tip the balance? Maybe a clean diesel? It is good for me. I am in the electrical industry. |
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Inferno7
Posts:344
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| 09/13/2014 09:35 PM |
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| I always thought it would be cool to have a green garage to power your green car. You know solar panels that would generate the charge for the car. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 09/13/2014 10:13 PM |
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| That would be a lot of solar panels. |
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Ride On
Posts:537
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| 09/14/2014 07:40 AM |
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An electric car consumes about 12.5KW per hour at highway speed. I think the Tesla has a 50KW hr battery.
If my math is at all right you would need a solar panel about 200 square feet plugged into the car for about 5 hours ( when the sun is shinning ) to charge it back up. Think something about 12ft by 12ft.
Don't go by my math it's usually not very good. |
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 09/14/2014 04:32 PM |
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One point on electricity and "being clean" ... here in Portland people can sign up for "green" electricity, ie solar or hydroelectric. Makes people feel good. But ... only a finite amount of electriciy is produced and that part that is "clean" a small part of that. All the rest is (at least here in Oregon) dirty coal.
And anything that adds to the grid load, like an electric car, just drives up coal use higher.
My very crude math says that a gas powered car is about 20% efficient. Say coal is burned to generate electricity at 60% efficiency, then 20% is lost getting it to the recharging station. Say the battery charging, discharge and motor are 40% efficient in total. That's 60% x 80% x 40% = 19%. Same energy cost and if that is coal burned, same carbon cost and far more pollutants. (Coal vs gas.)
True, we get to pollute air far from many inhabitants here in Oregon and the acid rain we cause is someone else's problem. Also coal is a local product vs all the international issues we have now from relying on foreign oil from places we are not welcome. Still, hardly either free or green.
Ben |
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THE SKINNY
Posts:506
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| 09/15/2014 08:57 AM |
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| a friend of ours just bought a new jaguar f-type. he got the cheap version ($69k). he kept his other car for driving to work. $69k for weekend jaunts and he only lives about 2 bikeable miles from work. it's that kind of thinking that will ruin us. |
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| How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives. |
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THE SKINNY
Posts:506
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| 09/15/2014 09:01 AM |
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| there was an article this morning on npr about formula-1 type racing with electric cars. from what i understand f1 racing has changed their rules to make the engineering more applicable to everyday driving. i'm guessing fe racing is an offshoot of that? i also want to see self driving cars at fi races before i go that route. there's big money in moving people around. |
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| How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives. |
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SideBySide
Posts:444
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| 09/15/2014 02:39 PM |
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Posted By inferno 7 on 09/13/2014 09:35 PM
I always thought it would be cool to have a green garage to power your green car. You know solar panels that would generate the charge for the car.
I know someone who does that. He has enough panels to be a net producer. He charges his plug-in at night. His production goes onto the grid during the day, when usage is higher. I suspect the power is better distributed since it can be generated and used locally instead of sent over wires from hundreds of miles away. |
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SideBySide
Posts:444
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| 09/15/2014 02:53 PM |
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FWIW, in Washington electricity generation was as follows, assuming I am understanding it correctly  . They actually force the wind turbines to shut down when we have too much water and energy production to use or ship from the region.
285 GWH Natural gas
0 GWH Coal
777 GWH Nuclear
8936 GWH Hydroelectric
862 GWH Other renewables (wind)
From:
http://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=WA#tabs-4 |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 09/15/2014 06:54 PM |
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That's a lotta wind.
Are these stats generation or consumption? |
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SideBySide
Posts:444
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| 09/15/2014 07:03 PM |
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Electricity generation. Energy consumption is also broken down by all energy used.
BTW, the (wind) comment was my added, and an assumption. It is a lot of "Other renewables." I expected Nuclear to be greater than other.
It's too bad we can't get the power from here to where it is needed.
I was amazed by how much wind generation equipment I saw being transported on the highway as I drove from Nebraska to Seattle. Those blades are huge. |
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THE SKINNY
Posts:506
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| 09/15/2014 07:42 PM |
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| i met a guy a few weeks ago that works at the local ge plant as a mechanical engineer. they build the dynamos for the wind turbines here and i see them all the time on trucks going to the port. he said they have one in the works now that will be 300' in diameter. i think the wind turbines are awesome. sorta science fictiony. |
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| How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 09/16/2014 09:28 AM |
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| Mater, that's why I specified hydro electric. |
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jmdirt
Posts:775
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| 09/16/2014 02:36 PM |
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One of the West coast colleges bought two cars, same model, one gas, one electric and drove them for two years (EPA grant I believe). Each car had all sorts of sensors to monitor ever aspect you can imagine. At the end of two years they compiled the data, and also extrapolated it out to ten years. An electric car charged on hydro electric is cleaner over 10 years (including battery disposal (which is improving). I believe that there are groups doing the same with wind, solar, coal, and nuke now to compare.
As so often happens I can't find the published paper again. I've thought about buying a flash drive just to save interesting research on for later reference because I'm forever saying "I wish I could find that article/paper/etc.".
My above post was to Master not Mater. |
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