huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/18/2022 02:47 PM |
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I deleted my own post - political. |
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6ix
Posts:485
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| 10/18/2022 03:07 PM |
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Ah, come on. Bring it back. This place is about the only forum that I can think of that seems 'safe' and actually has really great political dialogue. Mutual respect and open minds.
It sure isn't the comments on CyclingNews or CT. There was whackadoodles on there.
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/18/2022 03:56 PM |
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It was a question of other's feelings about the odds of some level of civil war/violence in the U.S.
Over the past decade I have sensed a shift, and the upcoming mid-terms has me unsettled, concerned that since the R's won't accept defeat, there are many - according to polls - that feel violence is acceptable as a means to forward a political agenda.
I live in a small liberal oasis surround in each direction by hundreds of miles of conservatives. Many I know dismiss the idea of violence happening here, but I don't. We are a nice soft target for those wanting to "express" themselves.
I wondered if anyone else had these concerns, and if so, how are they dealing with them... |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 10/18/2022 05:29 PM |
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OK, here's an alternative with undeniable political angles, but mainly restores faith in humanity:
Summary/ teaser article: https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/08/us/marine-mosque-islam-blake-cec
Here's the documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPbbl1S6foM
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/18/2022 05:34 PM |
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| Read that a few days back. Not that hopeful on a larger scale. I really want to be wrong. |
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longslowdistance
Posts:2881
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| 10/18/2022 05:39 PM |
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| So let's spread this little bit of extremely good news. |
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6ix
Posts:485
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| 10/18/2022 06:44 PM |
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Sadly, I think we're going to see a fair bit of violence after the mid-terms and some crazy stuff in the next 2 years. Thing is, it's going to be hard to have a true civil war because the country isn't really separated by something like the Mason Dixon line. It's more rural versus urban, so difficult to draw lines between the fighting parties.
In the end, I fear the republicans are going to win because they've simply said they won't accept defeat unless they win. It's weird and dangerous behavior, and since they tend to be the ones with all the guns, we're going to be left with an autocracy. The United States as we know it will not be around in 10 years. My guess is that the western states are the first to separate themselves.
Another scary thing I was thinking of is whether Trump is given the live TV hearing with the January 6th commission. Mark my words, there will be a small army of idiots outside the capitol just waiting to go, and on live TV he'll tell all his mouthbreathing minions across the country to rise up. They'll probably take over some state capitols and there will be bloodshed once the National Guard steps in and squashes them. All in the name of some guy's raging ego. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/18/2022 07:05 PM |
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Posted By christopher behrens on 10/18/2022 03:56 PM
It was a question of other's feelings about the odds of some level of civil war/violence in the U.S.
Odds are high, and not just in US. The signs are everywhere. The US just has front runner status and highest profile but there are concerning trends here in Canada, and look at what the hell just happened in Sweden etc.
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 10/18/2022 07:43 PM |
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I just finished reading "American War", a 1984ish fiction of the 2nd Civil War, 2074. Absolutely chilling. The scenario portrayed doesn't seem at all like a stretch. (And more so since it was published 2017; before COVID. Before our last pres had accomplished anything. Before any of this Red stuff.
The book was on the new books shelf at Powell's; perhaps the biggest and best bookstore in the world. Author now lives in or near Portland so it may never be seen outside the area. If it is, it will be another 1984. Mark my words. It is one hell of a read |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/18/2022 09:31 PM |
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Here’s a good factual analysis that I read a while back. Let’s call it the view from the great white north.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-american-polity-is-cracked-and-might-collapse-canada-must-prepare/ |
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6ix
Posts:485
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| 10/19/2022 07:57 AM |
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So, buckle up? Might be a good time to stock up on tires, Shimano chains and cassettes.
Thanks for the article, OC. Frightening. |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 10/19/2022 09:54 AM |
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I think violence is all but inevitable....to what degree is still up for debate. Hell, it is already here....Jan. 6th, anyone?
As someone who studied PoliSci and History in school, I have been forcing myself to push back and look at the macrotrends across decades, not just in the scope of what has occurred since 2016....and quite frankly, it is frightening as hell.
We have become lazy and entitled as a society and feel that our democracy is a given....but in reality, it hangs by a thread. The Norms and Standards which have guarded much of it are only traditions, and once those are blown up, things get perilous.
They have already taken abortion and Social Security is next, followed by Medicare....gay marriage, gay sex and even contraception are all in the crosshairs, as well.
Most frightening are the number of GOP candidates running for lower-level, less visible positions that guard the election process. Many, many are election deniers and once we lose controls of the voting levers, we are well and truly fooked.
Happy Wednesday. 🥴
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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6ix
Posts:485
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| 10/19/2022 10:10 AM |
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| It goes to show that bullies always win. The whole "turn the other cheek" concept simply doesn't work with these people. Just like CK said, certain standards and norms are simply not followed by them, and if we choose to abide them, we lose. Remember Michelle Obama saying that if they go low, we go high. IT DOES NOT WORK! They are playing dirty and will cheat in any way they can and have zero problem with letting it be known. Like that POS running for Arizona governor. If she wins, cool. If not, she won't accept. That right there shows there is no working with them. |
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/19/2022 10:55 AM |
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Good to know I'm not crazy in my concerns... although I wish I were.
It appears that the subject is the elephant in the room - not this room - as it's not being publicly addressed or confronted.
Had a first this past week - passed at least 50 National Guardsmen humping it down the public bike path to a park where they spread out to train on unloaded large caliber machine guns... Odd.
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/19/2022 10:58 AM |
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That's in fact spot on 6ix and CK. It was discussed in this article, with bottom line that the right has a plan (win at all cost) but "at this supreme moment of crisis, the left has divided into warring factions completely incapable of confronting the seriousness of the moment."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/04/next-us-civil-war-already-here-we-refuse-to-see-it |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 10/19/2022 11:04 AM |
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It goes to show that bullies always win.
Trump being the perfect example....he has never been held accountable for anything in his life, but he continues to be able to bully and browbeat people into submission.
Sexual assualt? Meh, locker room stuff.
Bankruptcies? Smart businessman using the law to his advantage
Impeachment #1? "perfect" phone call.
Impeachment #2? "patriots"
I could go on, but the hypocrisy is just fooking galling.
it has been said time and time again, but you can only imagine the exploding heads on the right if Obama did even one of these things.
Last point - the cries of the GOP are all about projection. If they are screaming about it, it is because theya re doing it and are trying to deflect attention away from themselves.
The sad thing is that there is no going back...our country is irreparably damaged, IMO. The GOP has become the Trump Party and you can't walk back from that. |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 10/19/2022 11:19 AM |
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I read the book How Civil Wars Start, it's frightening that we're staring into the precipice.
The fascist GOP (and I just finished Madeleine Albright's book, Fascism: A Warning) have packed the court, gerrymandered congressional maps, and dominated school boards and other local offices that serve as the minor league for larger political offices effectively icing out liberal/ progressive candidates.
We on the left when we feel the need to "take action" carry protest signs or write sternly letters to the editor. The QOP storm the capital, bum-rush city hall meetings, and tote around AR-15's.
I do hold out some sliver of hope; in Utah Evan McMullin is giving Mike "the bootlicker" Lee a run for his money. Mitt Romney so far has kept an arms length and not endorsed his fellow republican. McMullin is running as an independent, the Dems are sitting this one out because if you have D behind your name, you're toast in Utah and by not fielding a candidate they might get rid of Lee.
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6ix
Posts:485
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| 10/19/2022 11:30 AM |
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Civil war is inevitable at this point but it certainly won't look anything like the first one. But what will it really look like? Terrorist bombings of soft targets like we see in the middle east? Like I mentioned earlier, we aren't geographically divided like in the first one. It's rural versus urban, the uneducated versus the "woke." How do you have a hot war when you can just as easily harm yourself in an attack?
So how will our day to day lives look? |
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/19/2022 11:41 AM |
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I take much less pleasure in the little wins as I now realize there's a very good chance we have passed the tipping point in our politics.
You are all correct in stating the Dem and the Republican candidates are playing very different games - with completely different rules, if any rules at all.
But what scares me is the populace supporting the Republican politicians. The folks supporting Herschel Walker are beyond insane, lacking whatever morality that used to define being a Christian. This group will swallow whatever load is squirted down their throats.
Not sure this conflict is something that one can sit out, especially if you live in a very divided area. Which leads me to the question of what to do...
Wouldn't hesitate to protect my family through violence, but is that the life one wants to live? No. Not sure if there are many other stable countries to move to. Lived in Mexico a few years back, but would be concerned if the U.S. went down the toilet that the Mexican government wouldn't be opposed to taking advantage of the Americans living in their country. And many won't take us - don't blame them. Not a lot of good possibilities.
There's always Vermont ; ) |
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Cosmic Kid
Posts:4209
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| 10/19/2022 11:55 AM |
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Not sure this conflict is something that one can sit out, especially if you live in a very divided area. Which leads me to the question of what to do...
I am lucky enough to not live in a divided area....IL is a Blue stronghold (even though it is solidly red downstate).
Conversely, there is not much I can do at the ballot box to change things....IL is gonna go blue no matter what I do or who I can persuade to vote, adn that goes for most of the local races in my area as well.
So while I don't expect violence here, I am also kinda feeling powerless to make a difference.
As for what to do, it is very tough for me to consider expatriating. Mrs. CK's MS requires a lot of treatments, etc. and I don't know how we would handle that in a foreign country, let alone her lack of mobility. But yeah, were it not for these extenuating personal circumstances, I would be looking at leaving the country after 2024 if things go as I foresee. Schitt, maybe even after Nov..... |
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| Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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6ix
Posts:485
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| 10/19/2022 12:03 PM |
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There are more than enough people that would leave if they could and that's why I see the states fracturing into smaller countries. Simply put, this country is far too larger to govern any longer. Different values all over the place. I could definitely see California skipping town and taking Oregon and Washington along with them. Hope they would be open to Colorado coming along!! Texas and the southeast can go another way.
I truly see this happening. I can't imagine having to move to another country and losing everything here. It's mind-blowing to even have to consider it. |
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6ix
Posts:485
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| 10/19/2022 12:04 PM |
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This made me realize something. The QOP are quick to pull out all their weapons and threaten violence if things don't go their way. We, on the other hand, just plan to leave.
Says a lot about them, so quick to threaten violence if they don't win their game. Such children. |
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/19/2022 12:06 PM |
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I think the midterms will be telling for my future.
On the one hand, if the R's take back the House and Senate, it may quell initial violence, but just lead to a guaranteed crap future for U.S. politics, AND if the D's retain the House and Senate, there'll more likely be initial violence, but hope for a future here.
Any of you heard of the 'Greater Idaho Movement'? It's a plan for a large geographic portion of Oregon to be taken in by Idaho as they adhere more to their politics. Looked at as mostly a joke, but seems to be taking on more of a possibility(slight) these days. So 6ix, you're thoughts are spot on.
It would be 64 percent of the land of Oregon(all Eastern) with 9 percent of the population - that is upset their values are not being represented by the 'libs'. Values? Is White Nationalism a value? |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 10/19/2022 12:18 PM |
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…the Dem and the Republican candidates are playing very different games - with completely different rules, if any rules at all.
Yes, there’s no Democrat equivalent of Lee Atwater. If there were Herschel Walker wouldn’t be electable as dog catcher. As close as we got was the ever snarky, ever funny James Carville. |
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6ix
Posts:485
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| 10/19/2022 12:30 PM |
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| Huck...are those the same people that took over the BLM office a few years back? |
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/19/2022 12:45 PM |
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| Can't remember if they are the same, or simply the same ilk. Saw a snippet on CBS Sunday Morning from this last week that one of the main drivers of the movement identified with the BLM episode. I got the impression that he thought it was justified and in line with their values. I could have misinterpreted. |
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Orange Crush
Posts:4499
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| 10/19/2022 02:07 PM |
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While we're at it, can Idaho take on Alberta as it seems that is what they want? Per their recent acclamation of Danielle - "anti-vaxxers are the most discriminated part of the population" - Smith. FreeDumb now rules Alberta plus the Federal Cons also acclaimed one as their leader.
In return we'll take the coast and make it part of BC/Canada. |
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/19/2022 03:36 PM |
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| Ooh, I like that proposal O.C. |
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smokey52
Posts:493
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| 10/19/2022 10:26 PM |
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Read "Profiles in Ignorance" by Andy Borowitz. The R trend to violence is nothing new.
CK, Illinois (my birth state) is much like New York (where I grew up and now live). Metro areas trend D, suburbs trend mixed, and rural trend R. Since the population centers dominate statewide, both states tend to be D with regional pockets of R.
wrt Mrs. CK, health care in Canada and EU are way ahead of US in many aspects. |
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 10/20/2022 01:07 PM |
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CK, I'm in the same boat. Portland. Actually, just outside and next county but still quite blue.
I knew 50 years ago that I had no business getting drafted into that ongoing war; that I had no business sharing a foxhole with a buddy; that I might not be able to pull the trigger to kill someone fighting for his country and drive out a foreign army. I grew up a couple of miles from where our revolution started. My first year was on the wharf next to the famous teaparty. We studied that war summer of '63, my hometown's Tricentennial, going to Bunker Hill, Paul Revere's shop, Faneuil Hall, Lexington, Concord.
Vietnam, we were the British supporting an unpopular government that could not exist without outside help. My plan if I were to get a low lottery number was to apply for CO status but knew I really didn't qualify because if Russia tried to invade us through Canada, I'd be on the Vermont border fighting for my homeland. Now? We have a homeland that is rapidly becoming like North and South Vietnam; only we ourselves are doing the dividing, not the French/US and China. (That lottery number? 264. I knew that if it were low and the CO status didn't happen, I'd be living at a Federal room and board. Also that I would not fare well there. No way was I leaving this land.)
I feel a little lucky that I ended up in this corner of the country that will probably stay fairly isolated from the worst of a civil war. Also that I am old enough that I won't be living too many years through and after it. And for better or worse, I have few skills and abilities that could contribute much to an armed struggle. On-bike go-fer? (I had the potential to be a marksman but never pursued it at all. A little air rifle fun with a classmate. A winter of target shooting with 22s at the YMCA. (I was such a geek and loser that I never shared targets with anyone else, listened to their bravado and assumed they were far better shots. Now in archery, only two of us could hit the target. Knew I won that one so I went to the awards. Blew me away that I got target shooting also.)
What I've been reading and learning recently has not been comforting. The history of slavery and how embedded it was/still is in this country's mindset. (10 states still have that word in their Constitutions, including Oregon. Many properties here have deeds that outlaw selling to descendants of slaves. And you have to go through expensive legal and court costs to change the wording! (Would it be all that hard for the state legislature to put into law a provision that anyone could bring their deed to the town clerk and pay $35 to have those words struck out?)
Two very sobering books: Slaves in the Family: very well documented and American War; fiction way to close to home. And the former goes a long ways to explaining why the latter will happen. |
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79pmooney
Posts:3180
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| 10/20/2022 01:23 PM |
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Posted By christopher behrens on 10/19/2022 12:06 PM
...
Any of you heard of the 'Greater Idaho Movement'? It's a plan for a large geographic portion of Oregon to be taken in by Idaho as they adhere more to their politics. Looked at as mostly a joke, but seems to be taking on more of a possibility(slight) these days. So 6ix, you're thoughts are spot on.
...
Not all bad for us western Oregonians. Taxes and utility costs would go down. (There are vast areas with miles of roads and power lines for one or two houses. Just spent a week out there and someone mentioned that early on so I rode with my eyes open. By contrast, dense housing makes supplying energy easy and efficient. Yes, the individual costs are very high, but hundreds or thousands are served, not two.
Now, if both this and OC's plan were to go into effect and things go further downhill, I'd need a passport to do a day's ride east over the Cascades. But no paperwork to ride nearly to the North Pole. (Finally, a reason for a fatbike.) |
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Dale
Posts:1767
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| 10/20/2022 04:19 PM |
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Read "Profiles in Ignorance" by Andy Borowitz. The R trend to violence is nothing new.
Have that as a book-on-tape ready by the author. About 30 minutes left.
Humorous but tragic to contemplate how totally ignorant and fascist so many on the right are. |
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thinline
Posts:323
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| 10/26/2022 09:41 AM |
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"There's always Vermont ; )"
Now, now, Huckle, don't be going and giving that information out so freely! |
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huckleberry
Posts:824
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| 10/26/2022 12:29 PM |
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Thin -
I heard they already closed the border ; ) |
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