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It would be a pretty tight race without (spoiler)
Last Post 07/12/2013 03:33 PM by Cosmic Kid. 66 Replies.
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cabron fiber

Posts:17

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07/11/2013 10:14 PM
Furthermore, why didn't any of those let go (Julich, Yates, et al) call bullschitt on them when they got canned?

I don't have an answer for that.
But maybe Jorg Jacksche or Michael Rasmussen or Floyd Landis or some other guys do.
JS

Posts:61

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07/11/2013 10:48 PM
Cosmic, I'd speculate that only a select few are on the program or even know about it. I'm guessing that's why Kimmage asked Brailsford why Boassen Hagen hasn't improved like others have after joining SKY when he actually showed more early potential than the current Skyborgs. Also, I'd be willing to bet that everybody released was pulled aside and told "look, we have to let you go to keep this from turning into a $4itstorm but here is a truckload of money, just sign this non-disclosure agreement and it's all good"
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1054

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07/11/2013 10:59 PM
Wait...only a select few are on he program? Weren't you one of those pointing out how the whole SKY team was riding ala USPS on the first mountain stage? How is that a "select few"? That's the whole damn team!

And as USPS has showed, you just can't keep that schitt quiet. People on the team figure it out pretty quickly. Hamilton's book illustrated that well.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
cabron fiber

Posts:17

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07/11/2013 11:27 PM
It's Sky's job to defend their program. Until they do it in a convincing way, people aren't going to believe them.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1054

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07/11/2013 11:42 PM
What defines "convincing"?

Whether we like it or not, there is a fine line between providing info to prove your program is clean and giving your competitors too much inside info.

In all honesty, I don't know if it is any team's responsibility to do that. IMO, that role belongs to the UCI.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
JS

Posts:61

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07/11/2013 11:56 PM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 07/11/2013 10:59 PM
Wait...only a select few are on he program? Weren't you one of those pointing out how the whole SKY team was riding ala USPS on the first mountain stage? How is that a "select few"? That's the whole damn team!

And as USPS has showed, you just can't keep that schitt quiet. People on the team figure it out pretty quickly. Hamilton's book illustrated that well.

I'm not going to argue the point. I will say I told you so when they do get busted, and they will. Maybe not this year but it's going to happen. Phuck team SKY for screwing up what could have been a great race and a perfect opportunity for a clean(er) future.
cabron fiber

Posts:17

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07/12/2013 12:14 AM
"Whether we like it or not, there is a fine line between providing info to prove your program is clean and giving your competitors too much inside info."

That's fine, but their victory won't be credible.
And really
- Training has gotten so specialized that someone can win the Tour by stealing training secrets? A lot of people would argue that, for the most part, TdF champs are born not made.
- Sky can't provide some meaningful info without revealing their secret training regime? What's Froome's VO2 max, for starters?
CERV

Posts:151

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07/12/2013 02:34 AM
Posted By Cosmic Kid on 07/11/2013 11:42 PM
What defines "convincing"?
At this point, I would say anything beyond "you'll have to trust us" or "he's clean, get over it". Some gesture, any gesture to show some accountability and demonstrate some transparency. Something that acknowledges the fact that fans are skeptical, and SKY, as the leading pro team in the world right now, with the leading rider in the world, cares enough about the sport to do something to help win back peoples confidence in the performances they are seeing. Publish passport results after the tour is over. Hire an independent testing agency to test riders daily and put riders results up on a forum with an expert to field questions about interpreting the results. Until then, fans have hear "trust us" way too many times.
cabron fiber

Posts:17

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07/12/2013 02:36 AM
+1 CERV
CERV

Posts:151

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07/12/2013 02:59 AM

One metric that isn't speculative is that Froome's time up A3 is the third fastest recorded, and everyone else in the top 25 of that list is a known doper. The only faster times were in the first "new era of clean cycling" circa 1999 right after festina.

The factors (fatigue, wind, race dynamics, etc) that influence a rider being able to put in a performance like that are debatable. Froome was fresh and out to prove himself. The stages leading up were easy, but at the very least people's skeptisim of his time is founded.

Sky, perhaps, could have dug into their highly rigorous scientific vault, and put out some documented VO2max or lactate clearing test results from 2009 showing Froome has always shown the potential to ride at this level. The majority of fans would be on board with a gesture that shows the top team in the sport would like to win back trust.
Instead, Brailsford calls people out for engaging in pseudo-science, right out of the lance-yohan playbook. It shows zero good will to the fans.
jrt1045

Posts:361

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07/12/2013 08:38 AM
Agreed Cerv, would love to see that data that convinced Brailsford that Froome had the potential to go from donkey to racehorse. Before Aug/Set 2011 Froome was mid 20's and had done what at the sharp end of the grid? And now he's killing it?

The tale of the tape, not bad as pro bike racing is tough but potential winner of a Grand Tour?
2005
1st Stage 2 Tour of Mauritius
2006
1st Overall Tour of Mauritius
1st Stages 2 & 3
2nd Anatomic Jock Race

2007
1st Overall Mi-Août Bretonne
1st Stage 5 Giro delle Regioni (Under-23)
1st Stage 6 Tour of Japan
2nd Berg en Dale Classic
2nd Time trial, B World Championships
3rd Road race, All-Africa Games

2008
2nd Overall Giro del Capo
4th Overall Herald Sun Tour

2009
1st Stage 2 Giro del Capo
1st Anatomic Jock Race

2010
2nd National Time Trial Championship
5th Time trial, Commonwealth Games

Giro
2009: 36th
2010: DQ for holding on to a car - stage 19

Tour
2008: 84th
Orange Crush

Posts:1161

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07/12/2013 08:54 AM
Address Bike Pure's comments and reasons why they pulled Froome as example athlete from their site. Of course same onus should fall on other GC contendors as well. http://bikepure.org/2013/06/transparency-grand-tour-contenders/
pikeHillRoad

Posts:95

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07/12/2013 08:55 AM
Why didn't the fired guys talk? Non-disclosure agreement?

I don't know, but like CERV, cannot buy the Brailsford use of the Johann/Lance playbook.

In Addition:
1) I am amazed by the change in the nature of Froome as a rider
2) I am amazed his dominance this year in all races he has entered
3) I am amazed by his dominance of this tour

That is not proof of doping, but it does, as many have said here and in the media, entitle us to ask hard questions. And those questions remain unanswered.
THE SKINNY

Posts:380

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07/12/2013 09:10 AM
i think the tt sealed the deal for me. the fact that he could beat all his competitors is believable but the fact that he beat them by almost a minute raised more flags than the olympic opening ceremony. i'm still watching though. it's just entertainment for me.
How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives.
Cosmic Kid

Posts:1054

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07/12/2013 10:24 AM
Posted By CERV __ on 07/12/2013 02:59 AM

One metric that isn't speculative is that Froome's time up A3 is the third fastest recorded,


Actually, it is kinda speculative. They have only been up the climb 4 times.So you can say it is the 3rd fastest or the second slowest. Just depends on your perspective, I suppose. Again, I;m not defending SKY or claiming that they are clean. As I said, I raised my eyebrows a touch after the TT. I just think there is a massive difference between being (rightfully) suspicious and outright calling the guy a doper when there is no evidence.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
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