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Wow! (pre-Aztec, pre-Inca, the Polynesians
Last Post 01/09/2018 02:10 PM by Orange Crush. 13 Replies.
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79pmooney

Posts:1860

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01/08/2018 11:42 AM
I’m reading Kon Tiki by Thor Hyerdahl. I read a school kid’s version when I was that age a long time ago. Wow! The voyage, yes, but far more, the people they were emulating with their raft and voyage. The people that left Peru overnight and left their incredible cities to the Incas. A people of incredible knowledge of math, astronomy and building prowess in huge stone pieces. Led by the mystical sun-god Kon Tiki. Their departure was legend passed down and told to the Spanish while the Incas still existed. The Polynesians have exact matching legends of a people led by a sun-god of the same name arriving from the east. All the legends describe those people as being white, fine featured and with often red hair and beards. The huge stone figures of Easter Island were of faces with fine features, very prominent chins (beards?) and topped with red stone hair(?). The red stone was also used in the same way in Peru. In both places, the red stone quarries were often miles from the quarries for the big stones. Legend in Peru says that these people came from the north.

On the raft, they spent a lot of time talking about Easter Island, the stones and the fact that these stones and the well documented procedure to quarry, carve, move and erect them was exactly the process that the ancient people of Peru used to work similar sized stones to make their incredible buildings. (Legend has it that all the men of those people on Easter Island were killed by invaders from islands to the west. The stone work was quite obviously interrupted abruptly, left exactly as is and not touch by the new people ever. Tools were still right where they were put down hundreds of years ago. Heads in process, heads being dragged, heads being erected.

I have also read in recent years the books about and by followers of the Toltec spiritual practice in Mexico. The Toltecs; the people who built the incredible city of Teotihuacan and left it overnight to the Aztecs, disappearing completely save (apparently) a few individuals who carried on the spiritual practice master to apprentice in complete secrecy, emerging in the 1970s thanks primarily to Carlos Castanada.

So, my mind takes me to: did the people of the Toltecs become the Polynesians? If so, wow! And what a people. No metals. All their incredible stonework was done with stone tools, wood and rope. What amazing architecture skills, astronomy skills (including superb navigation skills in the southern hemisphere with its lack of the oh-so-convenient North Star to tell you your latitude with no math required at all) and math skills. (I picked up a large treatise of the ancient arts and knowledge of Central American civilization. Haven’t started it yet but in a quick scan I read of a calculator they used to multiply, divide and do square roots and other high functions!) Those Polynesians could sail the 2000 miles to Hawaii and back, no problem. Without metal for sextants. Without clocks. I believe without compasses. They knew the earth was round. They knew the equator and had names for it and the hemispheres. They knew the stars, the first 5 planets and constellations like very few do now. (They lived in a world of 12 hours of warm darkness every day with usually very clear skies. On an open boat, that sky is much of your world.)

The early westerners found fair skinned and sometimes red haired people among the Polynesians. Also heard the legends that these people were descendants of the sun-god.

This has me thinking: are the Polynesians, formally pre-Incans, formally Toltecs(?), originally from Europe or the mid-east? Did they bring their knowledge with them? (Pyramids? The great Greek buildings? The evidence that some of the ancients of North Africa or Greece had measured the diameter of the earth and got it right. (Well a little off. They didn’t know it was pear shaped.) And, whether these are two distinct peoples or one, what a loss of knowledge! I want to know more! I was kind of dreading plowing through the scholarly text on the ancient Central Americas but now I just want to learn as much as I can.

Ben
Dale

Posts:1009

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01/08/2018 03:06 PM
I was hyper interested in Kon Tiki when I was a kid. Even took to carving Easter Island-like faces in the hardened sand walls near the banks of Columbia River when we went water skiing.

Interesting to contemplate the migratory nature of peoples.
Orange Crush

Posts:2102

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01/08/2018 04:06 PM
Interesting stuff. DNA is definitive answer. Some recent interesting findings too on Alaskan peoples. The certainty with which they can do things these days kind of takes the fun out of the old guess work.

Polynesian ancestry is mostly Asian (Taiwan route) but with a traceable indigenous American influence that must have occurred pre-European discovery on basis of degree of gene mixing.

..and of course the fact that they could do this complicated computational work on both sides of Atlantic just goes to show the old Alien influence theory. Years of space travel will make for pale skin too
Orange Crush

Posts:2102

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01/08/2018 05:03 PM
BTW the ancient red haired peoples you refer to appear to be the Paracas of Peru. Highly developed ancient civilization but later overrun by invasion from North.

Fascinating stuff but very little trustworthy science done on their origin. The tales of unexplained DNA and ancient European DNA were disproven here as likely simply being laboratory contamination and poor science:

https://violentmetaphors.com/2016/09/20/genetic-mythologies-nephilim-dna-from-the-paracas-skulls/

well, that was an hour wasted that I should have been working
79pmooney

Posts:1860

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01/08/2018 05:51 PM
OC, I went to that link but chose to hang on to my hour. Kon Tiki was sailed in 1947 and written in 1948 so none of this DNA stuff was skewing their thoughts and observations. The cranial distortion that report talks about is interesting but did they also bleach their skin and dye their hair? Grow/fabricate beards? There is also the progression of stone working techniques down the Americas and to the islands to the west, all with no archeological indication of any evolution of that art. It appeared to have just showed up one day on Easter Island, along with a landing for rafts/boats on the east side of the island. Consistent with a people moving from Peru and taking their skills with them.

In the book, they talk a lot about the interesting mix in places and tensions in other places between the light skinned Kon Tiki people and the dark skinned people who were there when they arrived. Also their observations of the skin colors of the people they saw in both the Americas and the islands.

I'm keeping an open mind.

Edit: I wonder if the Toltecs of Mexico became the Paracas of Peru. THey both seemed ready to pack up and move, rather than stay to die or become subservient.

Ben
longslowdistance

Posts:1565

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01/08/2018 07:18 PM
BTW, if you find this thread interesting, here's a well written book you might enjoy:

Sapiens.

https://www.amazon.com/Sapiens-Humankind-Yuval-Noah-Harari/dp/0062316095/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515460590&sr=8-1&keywords=sapiens+book

I thought this "pre-history" thread was going to be a thread about Mafac brakes or Christophe toe clips.
Turned out to be way more interesting.
Orange Crush

Posts:2102

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01/08/2018 09:44 PM
Hi Ben

The Paracas civilization is in fact way older than the Toltecs. The Paracas roughly coincided with Persian Empire, Alexandre the Great and early timeline of Roman Empire:
https://traveltoeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Photo-20160315234347909.jpg

Basically, the deeper you dig, the more evident becomes that Peru, like Mesopotamia was a 2nd parallel cradle of civilization; some real cool history here:
https://traveltoeat.com/ancient-history-of-peru/
Dale

Posts:1009

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01/09/2018 09:11 AM



I thought this "pre-history" thread was going to be a thread about Mafac brakes or Christophe toe clips.
Turned out to be way more interesting.



This made me laugh out loud. Well done!
Orange Crush

Posts:2102

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01/09/2018 11:15 AM

Posted By Dale Dale on 01/09/2018 09:11 AM



I thought this "pre-history" thread was going to be a thread about Mafac brakes or Christophe toe clips.
Turned out to be way more interesting.



This made me laugh out loud. Well done!


That's not prehistory, we're talking wing nuts and the pre-derailleur era; the stuff that really old nutters like Ben use.

Anyway, spent last night doing a bit more reading. I think the Kon Tiki dudes were on to something but they got it backwards. It was the Polynesians doing the sailing; they went to mainland for trading purposes and brought back stuff like sweet potatoes that are an american staple and that is found on the islands. As part of that, they must have heard and/or seen the cool stuff Toltecs etc were building; they probably wanted to flex some of that stuff on their islands so maybe they convinced (or kipnapped) a few of the old engineers to help them build those statues (kinda like how the Americans and Ruskis started their space programs by kipnapping nazi engineers). A smaller influx of a few Toltec engineers would be consistent with the story DNA is telling.

As well, the story of how the americas got populated needs revisiting as more and more sites are discovered that are inconsistent with the bering straight ice bridge hypothesis. More likely there was an earlier influx via a maritime route and the associated advanced skills they brought led to the civilizations trampled by the europeans. Mesa Verde in Chile is just one of sites challenging what was long held to be common knowledge.

This is a good read challenging old school thinking: "a lesson in how sparse evidence, a fixation with “mysteries," and a collective amnesia for historic atrocities caused a sustainable and surprisingly well-adapted population to be falsely blamed for their own demise."

http://www.newsweek.com/easter-island-dna-secrets-doomed-civilization-684023
79pmooney

Posts:1860

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01/09/2018 01:25 PM
Following OC's Newsweek link (and getting a little lost) I stumbled on a Babyloniam table of hieroglyphics that was the relationships between the sides and diagonals of many right triangles (like the 3-4-5 we all know from Pythagoras). Like a modern trig table - except exact. No round off, no error. How did they pull that off? Well they could count beyond 10 unlike present day Neanderthals. They used base 60. Divisible cleanly by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 12, 15 and 30. Two through 6 dividing cleanly? Our most commonly used dividers? What a concept!. 8 and 9 leave one place beyond the decimal. (I've thought we should have used base 12 forever. Base 60 is even better.)

Another sidetrack, one that is a little disturbing. The book "Beyond Words, How Animals Think and Feel" talks about intelligence vs domestication. Follows wolves and their spin-off, dogs. Seems that the less wild the dogs became,the lower the required intelligence. Has me wondering if the same is happening with humans. (If we were thrust into the world 10,000 years ago, how would we fare? Scary thought.) The book also follows elephants and orcas at length. We don't come off as looking so smart; maybe not even as smart

Ben.
79pmooney

Posts:1860

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01/09/2018 01:34 PM
OC, Heyerdahl talks about the sweet potato being only found in the Polynesians in the areas where the sun-god legend lives, that the islanders from older roots had no use for the plant and it did not exist on their islands, or even on their half of shared islands. That suggests Americas to islands, not vice versa. (But the islanders could well have both brought back potatoes and women. Marco Polo-like. Think pasta, tea. I don't know if Marco Polo brought back women but other human expeditions certainly have.)

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:1860

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01/09/2018 01:35 PM
OC, Heyerdahl talks about the sweet potato being only found in the Polynesians in the areas where the sun-god legend lives, that the islanders from older roots had no use for the plant and it did not exist on their islands, or even on their half of shared islands. That suggests Americas to islands, not vice versa. (But the islanders could well have both brought back potatoes and women. Marco Polo-like. Think pasta, tea. I don't know if Marco Polo brought back women but other human expeditions certainly have.)

Ben
79pmooney

Posts:1860

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01/09/2018 01:38 PM
OC, Heyerdahl talks about the sweet potato being only found in the Polynesians in the areas where the sun-god legend lives, that the islanders from older roots had no use for the plant and it did not exist on their islands, or even on their half of shared islands. That suggests Americas to islands, not vice versa. (But the islanders could well have both brought back potatoes and women. Marco Polo-like. Think pasta, tea. I don't know if Marco Polo brought back women but other human expeditions certainly have.)

Ben
Orange Crush

Posts:2102

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01/09/2018 02:10 PM
Ben

If you want to keep digging, there's some fascinating theories, some backed up by evidence and discoveries here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact_theories#Possible_Polynesian_trans-oceanic_contact

Certainly the commonalities in building large structures; the fact that the swastika symbol was used around the globe as sign of fertility very early on in civilization are all very interesting.

The one that stands out though is the two founding populations of the ancient americans and that one is now getting backed up by DNA: the Clovis people (traditional hypothesis of land bridge) and a second origin of Australasians (indigenous groups in Australia, Melanesia, and island Southeast Asia).

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14895
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