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Sobering - Russia
Last Post 05/05/2022 11:21 PM by Frederick Jones. 13 Replies.
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79pmooney

Posts:2960

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05/02/2022 12:05 PM
Saw the CN headline "Oleg Tinkov fears for his life after criticism of Russian invasion of Ukraine". (I haven't tried the workaround to read CN artlicles and can't remember where it's posted. May sign on to CN to read this.)

Read not long ago "Russia's War", WW2 from the Russian side. It talks of Russia's journey since the start of last century, WW1, Lenin, the Revolution, Stalin, the ebb and flow of risen peasants and the old money/very wealthy in high places in government. (The ebbs were very often accompanied by deaths and disappearances.) Very interesting read. Author makes little judgement as to whether Stalin was good or bad. For example, he points out the millions who died because if his policies, both directly by Stalin's conscious decisions and by his partly-line insistence on the military being run as "the people's army". When he let his generals have their way, some of their tactics were brilliant and very costly to Germany.) Also, through the brutal relocating of workers to the far east, sending ample food to them at the expense of real starvation to the western civilians, Russia could out produce Germany in tanks and weapons. (I wonder but doubt if the US could survive such an attack. Luckily for us we have no common borders with countries more threatening than Mexico and Canada.)

After reading that, it is very clear to me that Oleg really has stuck his head in the noose. The more the US rattles its sword and NATO advances weapons and men, the more Russia is going to tighten up for the big one. Putin will become Stalin at his most ruthless, simply because Russia will only survive another WW if it goes to the extremes it did in WW2. Russia's a poor country with not all that many people. To survive will take everything they have, like WW2. Zero dissent allowed.

I don't like this. But I am coming to terms with the idea that not every person or state is born into a world and land of green pastures and honey. (We weren't either. We moved overseas to that land and removed its inhabitants by genocide. Worked this new-to-us land with labor from yet another continent under a system very different from but just as cruel as Stalin's.)

I've always liked Tinkoff as a character not unlike Ted Turner. Smart business man. Willing to take risks (and from the little I know, willing to be a man about it when things go badly). Says what what needs to be said. Often seen and heard not wearing the "me first" hat.
Orange Crush

Posts:4060

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05/02/2022 02:29 PM
Ben - on CN main page, right click on the article, then select "open in incognito window". You can continue to read uninhibited.

Reads like Tinkov has leukemia, yikes.

As to the subject at hand, my thoughts on the matter are pretty succinctly reflected here: https://www.salon.com/2022/03/03/mikhail-gorbachev-changed-history--and-then-the-west-paved-the-way-for-putin/?fbclid=IwAR0wR9ggZqaSovCpu0LSRSXMQY3zYp3LiGXwRYXgz_DR2TLrsG3tEyaF3PQ
79pmooney

Posts:2960

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05/02/2022 04:57 PM
Thanks. Firefox doesn't have the incognito wording but opening in a new browser did nicely. I get to waste more hours again at CN!
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3985

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05/02/2022 05:17 PM
Someone doesn't get to Tinkov's status in Russia without being dirty.....Not to mention his $500M settlement with the US for tax evasion. So I am not really gonna shed too many tears over his situation....but I'll give him credit for speaking out against the Ukrainian War and paying the cost for it.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:4060

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05/02/2022 05:36 PM
Anyone anywhere with that amount of money is dirty to some degree. Yes I am looking at you Jeff.

Its not just Tinkov who is in that boat. Ordinary Russians across Europe are getting phone calls from Russian government about their stance on war.
Habanero

Posts:257

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05/04/2022 07:20 AM
That was a very interesting read and one which I agree with completely.

It is a tragedy we didn't handle our approach to Russia differently. This whole mess now could have been avoided.

Cosmic Kid

Posts:3985

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05/04/2022 10:31 AM
It is a tragedy we didn't handle our approach to Russia differently. This whole mess now could have been avoided.


Years of appeasement across the West have led to this....multiple countries and governments all caved to his aggression. we needed to stand up firmly many years ago, but we lacked the spine to confront Putin.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
79pmooney

Posts:2960

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05/04/2022 11:20 AM
Thanks Hab for waking me up to the link OC posted. Went there, read it. My recent read, "Russia's War" stops just short of the wall coming down though the author makes it clear that his book could not have happened except for that and the opening of vaults and files in Russia to the world's eyes that could/would never have happened otherwise (and probably ever again).

While at that site, I clicked on "Will Russia's war crimes in Ukraine convince the U.S. to consider its recent past?" ( https://www.salon.com/2022/04/15/will-in-ukraie-convince-the-us-to-consider-its-recent-past/ ) Puts Putin's aggression here in stark perspective. It took the evil Putin 24 days to drop the tonnage of bombs on Ukraine that we dropped the first day on Iraq. (I recall reading we used more explosive power on Bin Laden in Afghanistan than a city of Germany in WW2.)

One thing our military learned from Vietnam - don't allow random reporters who might do actual journalism including photography of bodies, torture, naked children fleeing napalm. So we do not get to see that and we get to believe our military is right, righteous and good. (Funny how they keep coming back with PTSD, even the ones who sit safely far behind the lines and video game the missiles into people's houses.) The rest of the world knows - except when our military can rush in and hide the bodies; bulldoze the debris. We need unfettered reporting. We also need to allow the UN to prosecute all war crimes, not just the ones done by others. In other words the justice we so like to celebrate (and spell as Justice with a capital J).
Orange Crush

Posts:4060

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05/04/2022 02:42 PM

Posted By Cosmic Kid on 05/04/2022 10:31 AM
It is a tragedy we didn't handle our approach to Russia differently. This whole mess now could have been avoided.


Years of appeasement across the West have led to this....multiple countries and governments all caved to his aggression. we needed to stand up firmly many years ago, but we lacked the spine to confront Putin.


If you read the link I posted above the problem is actually what led to rise of Putin. Post Soviet Union collapse we should have supported Gorbachev and Russia's emerging democracy. Instead we put an emphasis on bringing Russia into the economic fold, introducing predatory capitalism and loans, supporting a drunk (Yeltsin) for president (because Gorbachev supposed communist ties), which then led to collapse of the Russian economy, record unemployment, the emergence of the robber barrons and quickly thereafter Putin. A lot of this ties back to short-sighted actions of the Clinton administration. There was so much potential with Gorbachev, in a way he's like Russia's Jimmy Carter, an idealist but one ill suited for the rigors of politics.
longslowdistance

Posts:2600

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05/04/2022 11:09 PM
I'm no geopolitical expert, but as we are exchanging thoughts here:
Russia's paranoia is partially justified, when one considers Napoleon and Hitler and their long memory. Emphasize partially. Regardless, add to that world view: pro Russian orthodox east Ukraine and pro west Catholic west Ukraine already had a fracture line. The western part flirting with NATO IMO was a mistake, sure to be seen as a threat by Moscow.
Add to the mix the ongoing cash infusion into Russia as we speak (from their energy exports. They may be feeling pain, but $1B per day eases a lot of pain.)
Cosmic Kid

Posts:3985

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05/05/2022 09:25 AM
Russia's paranoia is partially justified, when one considers Napoleon and Hitler and their long memory.


Having studied Russia and Eastern Europe extensively while I was in school, it amazes me that more people cannot see Putin as just the lastest version of the Russian sense of inferiority on the global stage and the need to be recognized as a global power.

The Cold War was just the 20th Century version of Russia's desire to be a player on the world stage....it existed for centuries under the Tsars and Stalin simply hijacked Marxist ideology as cover for his version of it. There was nothing "communist" about the USSR from Stalin forward....

Everyone says we "won" the Cold War, but we really didn't....while we were taking victory laps, these historical forces were licking their wounds and plotting their comeback...this time in the guise of Putin's authoritarianism.
Just say "NO!" to WCP!!!!
Orange Crush

Posts:4060

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05/05/2022 02:58 PM
Putin's main drivers aside from restoring Russia on global stage are weakening the west and getting even.

The 2016 election meddling, Russian bounties on US heads in Afghanistan and Ukraine are all about settling scores.

China is laughing all the way to the bank on these continuous tit for tats.
Dale

Posts:1639

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05/05/2022 08:52 PM
We also need to allow the UN to prosecute all war crimes, not just the ones done by others.



We want everyone else to sign on to that but somehow the US wants to exempt itself, as much as I'd like to see Bush junior, Dick Cheney, and Henry Kissinger in prison as the war criminals they are I doubt that's going to happen.
longslowdistance

Posts:2600

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05/05/2022 11:21 PM
Good point. I'll wager many in the world see little difference between US invading Iraq and Russia's current foray.
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